Motorized recon/cavalry doctrine in many countries had jeeps and light trucks armed with anti-tank missiles (TOWs, recoilless rifles, etc.) to detect, screen, and harry formations of enemy vehicles (tanks, APC, SPAs, trucks, artillery, supply, etc.). Doctrine is speed, shoot-and-scoot, because the missile jeeps are lightly armored and can be destroyed or suppressed by artillery and machine-gun fire.

The Israelis used light anti-tank jeeps in their big tank battles.

Even in WW2, fast jeeps would zip around, towing light anti-tank guns.

- 1942 Willys MB and M3 37mm anti-tank gun

US WW2 Jeep Bantam Car with 37mm anti-tank gun, 1941.

US TOW missile on an Iranian Jeep.

US M151A2 TOW jeep in Beirut, September 1982.

US TOW missile being fired from a Ford M151 MUTT.

The deal with light (unarmored) vehicles is to treat them like modern cavalry. Scouting, recon, sniping at the enemy and speed away. Unless you are dealing with impoverished third world hellholes, then technicals can be heavy-hitters, chewing up light infantry (or untrained peasant guerrillas and refugees) with DShK-38 anti-aircraft machine-guns and rocket artillery.

US TOW missile fired at a house in Iraq containing Qusay & Uday Hussein, 2003.
Fast Hummer-mobile infantry showed up (with attack helicopters) to assassinate two vile jerks on their hit list.

>So I was sitting here thinking how badly I need to go take a crap, and my mind got to wandering.
Classic acid man thread

Love it, dont ever change

>>10568
I wonder if Acid Man was just sitting around thinking how badly he needs to go take a crap OR if he was on the toilet thinking the same.
This is safe toilet musings, but fraught with hazards elsewhere.

- US 106mm M40 recoilless rifle on a Jeep.

USMC Soldier firing TOW Missile from Ford M151 MUTT. TOW, which stands for Tube-launched, Optically tracked, and Wire-guided, was developed by Hughes Aircraft Company for the U.S. Army and has been adopted as an infantry anti-tank weapon by more than 20 other nations. Here members of the U.S. Marine Corps fire a TOW during first-firing exercises at Camp LeJeune, N.C.

TOW missiles on a ROC Army AH-1W attack helicopter.

For those who don't want to be tossed around by counter-battery artillery fire, move up to the M113 ITOW.

- M901 TOW armed vehicle Greek (Hellenic) Army at a parade in Athens, 2008.

Or really rank up with a Wiesel tankette.

Makes me think of "The Rat Patrol"!

German Wiesel tank with an MG3 & TOW missile launcher in Afghanistan.

Or 20mm gun.

German Wiesel 1 TOW vehicle.
http://www.primeportal.net/apc/dieter_krause/wiesel_1_tow/

God help me, these Wiesels are ADORABLE!

So... yeah, light TOW vehicles are used to scout, shoot and scoot in order to harass enemy armor columns.

Developed to fight the gigantic tank battles in the North German Plain during WW3 where the countryside around Hamburg and others would be strewn with discarded sabots and the guide wires of TOW missiles.

Wiesel 1 TOW launcher converted into a reconnaissance vehicle.
http://www.pzaufkl.de/include.php?path=content/articles.php&contentid=7

German Puma (infantry fighting vehicle) during a hot climate test in Abu Dhabi.

Following tactical and logistical trials, this year the Puma armoured infantry fighting vehicle (AIFV) successfully underwent hot climate zone trials. In early November the two tried-and-tested Puma AIFVs returned from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in good condition. The trials were conducted under the overall direction of Germany’s Federal Office of Bundeswehr Equipment, Information Technology and In-Service Support (BAAINBw). Experienced defence industry personnel provided the necessary organizational and especially technical support on location. The host nation suppor¬ted the undertaking with infrastructure, transport and daily catering in exemplary fashion. These summer trials lasted over two months and involved various phases.

First, the accuracy of the Puma’s main and secondary armament – the MK30-2/ABM automatic cannon and the MG4 machine gun – was put to the test. Live firing was conducted in stationary mode as well as on the move, both day and night. Temperatures at the modern firing range in the northwest UAE ranged between 35 and 50° C in the shade. Yet the experts from Defence Technology Detachment (WTD) 91 successfully shot their way through the entire test programme. After conducting their own tactical firing procedures, German military users were left in no doubt as to the Puma’s ability to complete its tasks with precision under extreme conditions. In addition, the air-conditioning system, which had to operate at high temperatures for weeks on end, proved highly efficient in multiple test series and daily operation. The participants also gave high marks to the IFV’s Multifunctional Self-Protection System (MUSS).

The Puma IFV demonstrated its mobility at two other proving grounds in the north and northeast of the UAE. Experts from WTD 41 were in charge of the mobility trials. Displaying excellent staying power with no breakdowns, the Puma proved that it could handle a great variety of different terrain types, including sand dunes, steep loose-surface tracks and a rocky desert streambed. Successful completion of the summer trials represents another important milestone on the path to getting the Puma to the troops next year. http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/themen_im_fokus/2013_11_27_puma_stands_up_to_heat_and_sand/puma_trotzt_hitze_und_sand.php

Are TOWs steered with a joystick or handwheels and does anyone have pictures of said equipment?

>>10603
Operator keeps optics on target with knobs and missile goes where crosshairs are centered.

An optical sensor on the sight continuously monitors the position of a light source on the missile relative to the line-of-sight, and then corrects the trajectory of the missile by generating electrical signals that are passed down two wires to command the control surface actuators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-71_TOW

- Hellenic Army BGM-71 TOW antitank missile sights, 1996

Now the Soviet AT-3 Sagger (9M14M Malutka (Tiny Baby)) 'suitcase' ATGM from 1963 was steered by a joystick.

Described as a manual command to line-of-sight (MCLOS) wire-guided anti-tank guided missile system, it was the first man-portable anti-tank guided missile of the Soviet Union and is probably the most widely produced ATGM of all time—with Soviet production peaking at 25,000 missiles a year during the 1960s and 1970s. Came as a big shock to the Israelis who were racing across the desert to rescue their forts on the Sinai during the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Russian 9M14M Malutka (NATO designation AT-3 Sagger) with 9S415 control box.

When you see the launching flash and cloud, immediately spray the area with everything you can throw at it in order to spoil the aim of the missileman.

Russian BRDM-2 Amphibious Armored Scout Car with Sagger ATGMs.

Serbian-produced 9M142T missile.

During IDF operation in Bint Jbeil in southern Lebanon, Israeli forces killed over 15 militants from the Hezbollah terror organization. During the operation, IDF soldiers disposed of enemy weaponry including: 5 anti-tank missiles, 30 grenades, 41 magazines, 10 bullet proof vests, and 3 motorcycles that the militants had been using. Israeli forces also located 20 assault rifles, 15 guns, 4 hunting rifles, a land mine detector, and detonation equipment.

A car filled with Sagger missiles, captured by IDF forces in southern Lebanon.

"What, those missiles, officer?"

9M14P1 Maljutka (AT-3 Sagger)

Polish attack helicopter Mil Mi-2URP-G - 9M14 Malutka (AT-3) AT-missile and Strela-2 AA missiles.

The advantage of the AT-4 Sagger is that it is mobile, broken up into three suitcases, and that the steering operator can be farther away from the missile launcher and further protected by being in a trench or foxhole and use the sight periscope to his advantage. An experienced missileman is the most expensive and precious part of the missile system, so you want to keep them safe.

Soviet AT-3 Sagger with a 9S415 control box & 2 suitcase missile packs.

And the AT-3 Sagger ATGM gave an anti-tank punch to light vehicles like the BMP 1 APC.

I do love me some sagger.

The sexiest one of all, IMO, is the granddaddy. The ENTAC.

If you have to have a manually guided missile, apply the SNECT principle liberally. Simple. Numerous. Effective. Cheap. Tough.

>state of the art electronics.

140mm shaped charge warhead.

This dumb little thing could kill any tank of its day for a unit cost of about $1200.

A modern reproduction, built from off the shelf model rocket and airplane supplies, would run only about $700 since the equivalent solid state electronics are so cheap.

>M201 Jeep equipped with ENTAC antitank missiles.

ENTAC (ENgin Téléguidé Anti-Char) or MGM-32A was a French MCLOS wire-guided Anti-tank missile. Developed in the early 1950s, the weapon entered service with the French army in 1957. Production ended in 1974 after approximately 140,000 had been built.

The missile is launched from a simple metal box, which is connected to an operator station. An individual operator station can control up to 10 launcher boxes. The operator manually steers the missile by means of a small joystick. These course corrections are transmitted to the missile via a thin set of wires that trail behind the missile - see MCLOS. Like many early ATGMs, the missile had a large minimum range (see AT-3 Sagger) due to the time it took to get up to flight speed and come under operator control. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENTAC

- ENTAC wire-guided anti-tank missile in Royal Australian Armoured Corps Tank Museum, Puckapunyal, Victoria, Australia.

ENTAC (MGM-32A) in the Musée des Blindés

ENTAC (ENgin Téléguidé Anti-Char) or MGM-32A, Musée des Blindés, France.

Jeep française équipée de 4 missiles Entac. Photographie provenant du musée des blindés à Saumur (printemps 2011)

Another good example of a fast jeep armed with anti-tank missiles to harry an armored force's flanks or overwhelm an armored force when attacking in mass and scoot away before effective return fire can be directed.

Hotchkiss M201 jeep (licensed Willys MB) with ENTAC missiles.

Something for paratroopers to give them a mobile anti-tank weapon.
But such things were largely replaced by man-portable anti-tank rockets and missiles. The heavier ATGMs were kept on IFVs, Jeeps and Hummers.

Scoured the depths of google for about 3 minutes and came up with this bad boy...

https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog/view/100.ATSC/5A3F59D2-74F7-43FF-AA85-AD6440432C80-1274422526223/3-21.91/c01.htm

Covers the basics of how a mounted anti-armor unit would be used in a conventional battle. I was in a USMC CAAT, later changed to "Mobile Assault Platoon" for our Iraq+Afghan deployments. Generally tasked with supporting our line infantry companies, we were an extra weapons platoon for them, with some additional capabilities (TOW and Javelin) that could be very useful. The TOW night sights, CLU, and PAS optics for our machine guns were excellent for observation, and made us damn near untouchable at night, the vast majority of engagements we got into were during daylight or low light. Usually the security patrols we'd send out in our couple of square klicks would take contact, we'd have our trucks respond as QRF and kill or rout the enemy. We served the same purpose as scouts in a cavalry or tank unit.

From the standpoint of an insurgency using improvised "technicals", it would be prudent to use them only in harassing attacks on enemy supply convoys, security patrols, never against armored formations or entrenched heavy weapons. Because the US/NATO doctrine has the advantage of the support of indirect fire and air assets. We were attacked by mounted insurgents with technicals on several occasions, and those that were able to escape before we killed them generally met their fate at the hands of an FA/18 or Cobra soon after.

>>10676

Whoops, here's the full FM

>>10677

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm3_21x91.pdf

>>10678

As a veteran to veteran informational commentary:

Acid man is a relatively paranoid, anti-establishment gun shop employee who has been compiling/"sharing" improvised explosives production, anti-armor and anti-personnel tactics among other things with the voiced specific intent/purpose of being able to defeat US LE/DOD forces/vehicles/tactics as a romantically framed US militiaman armchair general. With absolutely no leadership experience to even back up conducting/leading any of said operations, mind you.

You'll find his handiwork to include his "armchair general militia manifesto" (or something along those lines) throughout this chan and is one specific individual on here that I can name that provides a valid reason to abide heavily by aggressive OPSEC with specific focus in regards to equipment/TTP's.

Even if it's open source, I'd take that into consideration before sharing/sourcing anything.

Your opinion has been considered, and subsequently rejected due to being stupid and gay.

>>10680

Duly noted. I was under the impression that dude was more of a hobbyist/history buff and said militia shit was pure hypothetical mental masturbation. Information strictly supplied for entertainment purposes/in case the Ruskies invade.

>>10688

That's not very polite of you.

Not necessary.

>>10579

>USMC Soldier

nigga you hilarious

>>10678

Huh. Interesting.

I had a copy of this archived already, but hadn't thought of it as an answer to this particular question. Thanks for posting it.

>>10680

I'm beginning to notice this pattern appearing where I get disparaged for cluelessness one second, then pointed out as having all this dangerous knowledge the next. I'd put one of those [lol] forum smileys here if Opchan had that functionality.

>>10698

Mental masturbation, yes. But more for our own government taking over than the Russkies coming for us or the British coming for their back taxes. They both have an ocean to cross. Pic related is right here next door, with money and power.

Don't mind BTDT. He's very pro, and has expressed how much he looks forward to the order for his Stryker to "own the ground" for the government in some nice American neighborhood if the balloon ever pops. He and I don't get along very well at times due to that. My mental masturbation involves blowing him up in the middle of his mental masturbation.

>>10700

Having actually served instead of making some excuse up where you couldn't take orders from THE MAN let alone actually take any oath to support and defend ANYFUCKINGTHING other than your own self-serving ass...

Having actually served, I know what our military is capable of as well as the men and women that comprise it. Where you lack knowledge and understanding, I have well based experience in the very subject of the men and women you choose to plan to kill. Living, fighting, discussing, planning, experiencing. I've already asked questions and know the answers. YOU and your designed intent of being a militia hero where you failed to be a national hero due to colocated vaginal/cranial sandinitis, will not be a factor in any stateside military event. You will get lit the fuck up, if you even step outside considering your lack of intestinal fortitude let alone physical aptitude, should the balloon you so look forward to go up.

The people that will make the difference is the majority of the military and veteran community as a whole upholding and defending the constitution. Not your armchair general ass that not a single motherfucker would listen to. You have no practical knowledge nor experience to back up anything. You have never done maneuver warfare, or even day to day minute to minute building to building take hold and own operations. Even the stupidest private I knew wouldn't fucking listen to you if you told him to tie his shoes or scratch his ass.

You're not a leader, you're not a commander, you're not even a patriot. You're SOL trying to wrap up your batshit in some misguided selfdescribed veil of "true patriotism". Where's the torso?

All said and done, you're exactly what's wrong with the militia movement. You aren't taking over shit, aren't leading shit, and won't be doing shit even if a MRAP fucking knocked on your front wall. You'll be sitting there in your stained underwear around your ankles, dick in hand and manifesto in the other, caught with your pants down since you don't have a fucking clue.

Actual Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen will be the motherfuckers that save this country IF, and it's a big god damn IF, true military force gets deployed stateside. Not you, not your dreams of general acid man with no earned rank, and not the american militiaman as it stands today.

Mental masturbate away, your dumb ass will make the first series of "best domestic hellfire strikes" videos if the shit ever goes down. You're so out of your league it's like a grade school special ed student trying to discuss an astrophysics thesis with a triple doctorate candidate without licking a window between drooling episodes. You wouldn't even make a good martyr since you're a never been nowhere never done shit fucking nobody that wouldn't even get a free obit scratched out on the tube from a roll of charmin.

>>10703

Case in point.

>tl;dr. Sorry mate.

Dat tank destroyer tho.

Upon further reading, it seems that the original M10 tank destroyer was actually preferred by the ground troops over the purpose-built M18 Hellcat.

For precisely the reason of greater survivability. The M18 was built with the "technical" mindset - very lightly armored, fast, and all terrain with the idea of quickly manoeuvring and ambushing enemy tank formations with it's big gun.

In actual combat, much like you described the technicals above, the light, fast M18s tended to get shot up and #rekt pretty good where the M10, built on a slower but beefier tank chassis could take more punishment.

The Hellcat got a lot of fame after the war for one great event, however.

They were so fast, that they were absolutely instrumental in closing off the German advance in the Battle of the Bulge. They were literally the only vehicles we had with the sustained cross county speed to catch up to and box in the German thrust, which lead to the holding action as Bastogne and the ultimate failure of the German offensive, and with it the war.

Pretty neat for a sheet metal box bolted to an airplane engine and treads.

Interestingly, the tank destroyer concept is still around, only substituting the big guns for modern ATGMs.

But they always stick them on what amounts to light APC chassis. So is the TD concept workable or not? And if WW2 proved the idea was bunk with more heavily protected vehicles coming out the clear winners, then why do we keep pursuing it?

Heck, if I understand the history appopriately the TD concept flopped bad enough that it fuelled the eventual push to integrate its functionality into the medium tank to create the MBT.

>>10703
Did you make that intending it to be a new "Gorrila Warfare" sort of copypasta, or do you actually believe what you said? I can't tell.

>>10710
Modern TDs just emphasize stealth and mobility over armor, although it does have protection against most IFVs (35mm+)

>>10714

I still didn't read his capslock salad up there, but I had forgotten this and shall give credit where its due. He's not a total statist from the sound of it.

http://www.operatorchan.org/n/res/91984.html#i92021

>>10741
Or

>>10703
god damn, even if I had a category 5 hurricane and a trailer full of donkeys I dont think I could get as ass blasted are you are right now, AcidMan has always come across as someone who loves america and is interested in spreading info that would allow others who love america to do something against those who would seek to use unlawful military force inside the border

if you love america and claim to be a good soldier then you should have more in common with him then most people, you seem to have taken an us vs them approach with him, when it should be you and him defending america from threats internal or external, hypothetically or not

you would have to be a non functional retard to not see the stuff going on since 9/11 that makes anyone a bit nervous about the actions of the US government, when it comes to freedoms and domestic spying, the militarization of police forces from coast to coast, there is a real problem. even if acidman was just some fat faggot who played call of duty all day and jerked off into technical manuals he found at the local surplus store he is still doing what he thinks is helping defend his idea of america, which is more then you do when you thump your chest and talk about how proud you are to be an unthinking pawn in the army of the very people who are shitting on the rights and freedoms of the people you claim to be taking oaths to protect.

your post was a salute to the destruction of america, you talk about how the army would destroy him, when he would only ever act against them if they were to use force against his fellow americans, which would be in direct contradiction to everything the US armed forces are supposed to stand for.

in fact, if you do support the murder of americans willing to stand against tyrants and defend the nation they love and defend the constitution then why dont you just get the fuck out, maybe you could pick up a quran and start killing americans now, that way you dont have to wait for the government to tell you its ok to kill your countrymen.

>>10943
>blah blah blah, militia this, militia that, defend 'Murrika this, defend 'Murrika that.

I've personally met Acid Man. He's probably one of the smartest people I know. He's the guy that you *want* on your side, designing gadgets and gidgets.

BUT!

BTDT is right, and Acid Man is not a natural leader, nor is he the sort of person who is going to be a ground-pounding bodyslayer.

I don't mind manifestos, and the sort of arm-chair speculation that goes on here, but I utterly HATE the fact that Acid Man (and many others here) aren't willing to go a single step further than that and, you know, actually organize into a local neighborhood watch and train together.

From what I remember, BTDT saw combat while serving in the Ranger Regiment. That means that not only is he highly trained, MORE IMPORTANTLY HE KNOWS HOW TO WORK WITH A TEAM.

That is what grinds me about this place: Very few people here, for all their talk, are willing to make friends where they work/live and then work on turning those friends into PT/battle buddies for when THE HAPPENING actually happens.

Today I was down in Oklahoma doing a run-n-gun. I drove down from KS, ParamedicDude drove up from Texas. You know who else showed up from here? Fuckin' nobody.

You know who else showed up at the last one, down in Texas? Nobody.

Seems that if anybody was serious about fighting off the gov't, they'd at least be willing to A: Develop those skills enough for a biathlon, and B: network with like-minded folks in person.

But no, all we get is a news board full of boasting and long, long how-to threads from people that don't.

It's sad.

>>10948

> BTDT is right, and Acid Man is not a natural leader, nor is he the sort of person who is going to be a ground-pounding bodyslayer.

James Bond needs Q. Not seeing a problem.

>>10949
>not seeing a problem
Q talks like he knows what M and 007 should be doing, without real-world experience in either job.

>>10948

>for when THE HAPPENING actually happens.

It's not happening.

>Today I was down in Oklahoma doing a run-n-gun. I drove down from KS, ParamedicDude drove up from Texas. You know who else showed up from here? Fuckin' nobody.

>Seems that if anybody was serious about fighting off the gov't, they'd at least be willing to A: Develop those skills enough for a biathlon, and B: network with like-minded folks in person.

>fighting off the gov't

This is why we don't show up, right there.
The mouth foaming REBULZ types on here are all talk and completely lack the ability to socialize with other human beings.
The rest of us are normal folk who train with and play with weapons for the plethora of fun reasons that don't involve sedition or treason.

Nothing has happened, and nothing is going to happen. Ron Paul is fucking crazy. The NWOluminatti aren't taking over the world. You're not going to a concentration camp. The reptillian overlords do not want to eat you. The rapture already happened and the only one good enough to go was Randy Savage.

While in the unlikely event the government suddenly becomes a hive mind of evil and tries to kill you all, yes you should fight back, until that time? You're wasting your fucking lives worrying about all this doomsday shit that isn't going to happen.

>>10951


Besides, you're all doing it wrong. If you want to defeat the NWO you don't go innawoods with a SKS, you should be training in professional wrestling techniques, and get Bill Goldberg on your team. Duh.

  >>10952

As you can see in this documentary, my tribe already defeated the NWO in 1998. You're welcome.

>>10950

He's good on the "how". You can use his "how" for your "what".

Knowing is half the battle.

>>10951
>>fighting off the gov't
>>REBULZ

Meh; whatever. I really don't give a shit anymore. I voted for Vermin Supreme last go round', so don't blame me.

According to GDP spending pie charts, America is a well armed nursing home. At this point the government is so big, with it's talons so embedded, and it's data collection/ security apparatus so deeply established, that I see no way of fixing it: with arms, or without.

Look what Mcviegh did in Oklahoma. He had delusions of grandeur that his bombing would kick start a revolution, but what happened? Nothing. Not a damn thing. No one even looked up from their six packs, disbursement checks, Jerry Springer, and day to day distractions. Fast forward to today where most people at all times have a portable device in their face playing farm ville, updating status, or enjoying the limitless leisure modern tech affords us.

There could be a video leaked of homeland security and TSA agents executing a line of Reddit dissenters ISIS style; and still nobody would even call their representatives- let alone take up arms against the Juggernaut.

I do biathlon for the same reason I do MMA and BJJ. It's the same reason I swooned over Jane's guides as a child. Guns, armor, and gear are fucking awesome. Having a fit and healthy meat body makes every aspect of life better. I like shooting, and martial arts- not for the reason of wanting to harm someone; but being proficient arm barring, punching, and shooting someone in the dick gives me the confidence to deal with most life problems which Starcraft can't match. There are no trophies here: just the satisfaction of competing with ones self.

Like Zak Smith said, " Anything else is really irrelevant and I've no patience for internet dirt shooters." I hold armchair generals in the same light as gun collectors who never take their room full of historical items to the range. It's all sizzle, but no steak. There are a lot of smart people who congratulate here, but don't take the internet so seriously.

You have a life begging to be lived. When on our deathbeds, I doubt anyone will be relishing that one time that they brought sensibility to yet another 9mm vs .45 internet debate, or arguing over which antitank weapon was king.

>Q talks like he knows what M and 007 should be doing, without real-world experience in either job.

I'm actually surprised this thread is still going. I would like to say one thing in my defence:

I would never, ever dream of telling someone like BTDT or any of our other combat vets "how it should be done" on the ground. I don't see eye to eye with anyone who holds a belief in absolute superiority of the regular military, that's true. But I think I stand on pretty firm historical ground concerning the successes of guerilla movements across the world. Its the only place I'm not willing to concede the headbutting contest.

I don't believe that I have, and if the impression has ever come across that way allow me to correct it, inferred that I will ever be some kind of HSLD-type, in a SHTF situation or otherwise. I'm neither door-kicker nor ground pounder nor squad/platoon commander material. I'm out of shape for it, getting too old, and have too many long term injuries now to ever cross that threshold again in a way I'd be comfortable with succeeding. The only formal "military" training I have I can't talk about because my State has goddamned laws against it, but I'll tell you straight doesn't amount to much. A couple weekends equivalent worth of peacetime National Guard exorcises, maybe. My rants always focus on theory, history, technology or seeking answers to questions - with the exception of the armchair manifesto which somehow morphed from me bitching to a drawn out thing of my own ideal concept of a militia movement and is sort of its own beast. I'm an expert shot with a rifle and pretty good at fieldcraft and field medicine and that's about all I've got. There are tens of thousand of people, quite a few on this little *chansite alone, who are a hundred times better for that role than I would be.

But if you think those are the only roles needed, I would disagree with you. The un-fun upper echelon shit; politics, strategy, ideology, and technological development, especially from simple means, are just as important to winning a conflict as an expert soldier like BTDT and his battle buddies are to winning a firefight. They don't require, to much resentment in the formal military, the level of boots-on-ground combat experience. Its academic analysis work, military history, math and applied sciences all done with an eye to the practical. I am not nearly so handicapped in that regard, to put it mildly. I got into it because nobody else ever did on "this side" of the aisle. They were all too busy jacking off to Rambo fantasies or playing Seal Team Derp out in the woods. I can't kick doors with you, but I know how to help pick which ones need kicking, how to pick who's best to go kick it, and I can teach a guy in a lab to make you better kicking boots if you need them.

>>10963
And that's a fair point. I don't have a problem with you playing Q. It does get annoying when you try to play Rommel, but that's different.

My beef with the "HAPPENING" types, both here and in the real world, is that they're generally loners, and not even trying to get to know other folks they agree with. I'm not saying that everyone needs to organize into militias (like the Idaho Light Foot Militia, which I looked into just enough to laugh hysterically), but folks at least need to be looking out for their neighbors and seizing every opportunity to train with folks.

There's a former SF comms guy out there who travels the US teaching field comms lessons. There's dozens of people out there who teach SUT shit. There's things like the run-n-guns I've competed in.

But what does the average person from here do? Argue about shit online, and stay inside where it's not swampy.

You'd figure that folks who want to preserve freedom, and maybe give the federal jackboots a tough go of it if they come, would spend a lot of time training. And not only training, but finding the rest of the people they need.

Because 00s need Q, and they also need M, and about a million folks feeding them intel.

Instead, modern society has us all in a mindset where we self-isolate, and don't talk to folks. We're already divided, already conquered.

It's a rare day where I can even strike up a basic "What do you shoot" conversation at the local shooting range. It's actually commonplace for folks to sit in their cars and wait while I, alone, practice whatever shooting drill I'm working on that day, then drive up when I start packing up my gear.

Then I'll go to work, and hear an array of folks bitching about the gov't.

Right now, we don't need more manifestos, we don't need more gadgets, and we certainly don't need people to blow up buildings. The idea that a core group of revolutionaries can kick-start a popular revolt was how Che tried to do it, and it only worked once. The second time, he got slapped down and was executed.

Mao's model (or Heinlein's, if The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress qualifies as a model) means that we need to be developing networks right now, and waiting for the right time to move. The right time is when we've got friends everywhere, and we've been developing those friends so that we know what the cops are talking about inside the station, we know what's going on in the mayor's office, and we've got folks all over town who can hide militia members when they need to be hidden.

I don't see ANYONE talking about *that* here. The practical, always-useful networking skills get bypassed in favor of coolguy guns, coolguy gear, and on occasion, coolguy gadgets.

What about PSYOPS? HUMINT? ELINT? Leadership skills for small units?

Those are far, far more important than weapons, bombs, or technicals, but those get next to no mention here.

/rant. It's a sore spot for me.

>I don't see ANYONE talking about *that* here. The practical, always-useful networking skills get bypassed in favor of coolguy guns, coolguy gear, and on occasion, coolguy gadgets.

What is Opchan itself if not a network? The problem IRL is that people are afraid to network for those sorts of purposes, and with very good reason. Big Brother, no shit, is watching.

>What about PSYOPS? HUMINT? ELINT? Leadership skills for small units?

>Those are far, far more important than weapons, bombs, or technicals, but those get next to no mention here.

Because they're not the kinds of things you can really cover in an average 20-30 post thread. Not to mention boring to write about. I've floated trial balloons for those kinds of discussions over the years, but they never went anywhere but page 10 with 2 replies.

When the squeeze is really on, assuming it ever comes, then the walls will come down of their own accord. When a hundred thousand people have all pressed the Fuck It button and don't care who knows, the networks will arise spontaneously. What they'll then need are people who can be the tip of the spear and who can make up the shaft and give it momentum. Have a little faith that they'll figure it out. If you perceive particular gaps in that "infrastructure", as it were, then make yourself ready to fill that gap yourself. Don't complain about people overlooking parts of the idea - cover those parts yourself and make sure you can teach it if you have to. It's not a perfect idea, but who gives a shit about perfect as long as whatever cobbled-together mess of a continental movement we get actually works.

>>10965
>What is Opchan itself if not a network?
>the networks will arise spontaneously
>cobbled-together mess of a continental movement
Dude, you are *completely* missing the point here.

Think about any truly effective military unit. What do they do all day? TRAIN TOGETHER. It doesn't matter if 2 Rangers, 2 SEALs, 3 Force Recon Marines, 1 Delta Force sniper, and 2 helo pilots from the 160th SOAR show up in a bar and decide to work together, they're still not going to be effective until they know and trust each other. Furthermore, they have to know, from experience, how the other guys in their team will act and react. Because even if they're all world-class shooters, they have to know that Steve is the fastest sprinter, while Jim always takes a sixth yard when running 5-yard bounding drills, and Bob prefers to do CQB with his sidearm instead of his primary, etc.

So take Opchan. Of the 17 people I've met from this board, I've seen exactly two (ParamedicDude and PJ) of them shoot like they meant it. Athanasius is one of my best friends, and although I know he's a combat vet, I've never seen him shoot in a non-goof-around setting. I've got a couple other friends from here (currently scattered around the US) that I know well enough to know they wouldn't sell me out...probably...if things got real.

Opchan, when we have meetups, generally sits around drinking and telling jokes. It doesn't build the kind of mutual trust in ABILITIES that is required to have an effective UNIT. I've met you twice. I see your posts all the time. Do you and I really trust each other enough to effectively work together? Or will you worry that I'll sell you out for religious reasons, or do I worry that your gadgets won't work because I've never even seen a video of them working?

"We met yesterday, so let's go to war tomorrow" is a fucking bad idea. Think about it, how the hell would we ever have a chance of knowing who the rats are if we don't start meeting people BEFORE shit goes south? When 100,000 people try to mobilize, with little, if any prior cooperation, it's called a "logistical catastrofuck", not "a successful revolution".

I trust PJ enough that if we were working together, I'd defer to him as squad leader. That shit only comes because I've known him for four-something years now, and if shit got serious, it would still take us a few weeks of practice to get on the same page. I don't know his friends, his friends don't know me. How would they react to me suddenly joining his team? Would they be willing to bound past me, would I trust them not to shoot me in the back if I'm first through the door?

At no point in all of history has a leaderless, ad-hoc resistance suddenly risen up to overthrow the oppressors. Ever. What happens is that a core network of people got together, slowly built up trust, and then started recruiting an extremely secure network of folks. That way, when shit actually started happening, there were cells of people who knew each other, and trusted each other to run ops together, while other cells ran C3, and still other cells pulled intel.

In your method, there is no C3, there is no auxiliary, and there is no strategy. Your method of "spontaneous" resistance will get us all slaughtered.

>Dude, you are *completely* missing the point here.

I did take the time to read all that, and my only complaint is that you're overthinking things IMO. You're going off the simplified textbook interpretation of military history. That isn't a diss, but that version of such events always leaves out the... I guess what you would call "formation from chaos" that revolutionary movements arise from.

The French resistance in WWII did not come about from pre-connected networks of cells. It arose spontaneously in the aftermath of the occupation, and through early failures and trial and error morphed into a semi-cohesive movement of organized cells. The Libyan revolution was kicked off by a guy selling fruit who burned himself alive at Laffytaffys front gates. Protesters assembled and when the police shot at them, they started shooting back.

Most revolutions, though not quite all, begin at their roots as little more than unorganized mob violence against some government over reach. The limitations of this approach become apparently quickly as casualties mount - at which point the guys who are "serious" and have their own personal shit somewhat together start looking to organize. The first guys to raise a flag, not sound completely crazy or retarded, and who manages to live long enough to set an example, will end up with those people rallying under them and an organization is born. Operations are conducted voluntarily, people get vetted and promoted/removed, supply lines get established, and shit touches off for real as the rest of the discontented masses start looking to them for leadership. Competing regional organizations either fight for dominance or merge under central co-authority and become stronger. Typical history always glosses over the ugly and chaotic beginnings of most revolutions, tending to start the story at the point where the organized players are beginning to emerge. It's never that simple.

I'll tell you the absolute biggest problem the US would have with conducting a populist regime change operation. The key element in every successful revolution in history that we completely and utterly lack. Significant financial backing. Even the founding fathers, many of whom were among the wealthiest landowners in the colonies, combined with taxes that pushed many areas to the brink of mass starvation, couldn't bankroll the revolution. It took the French getting involved and donating literal shiploads of gold to pay the bills for that shit. FARC had to turn to a massive drug running operation to pay their bills. Libya would have gotten nowhere without NATO aid. The Viet Cong would have been nothing but a brief memory without Russia, China, and North Vietnam. Al Qaeda operated an armada of legit front businesses set up by Bin Laden using his fathers substantial fortune, plus another guy's, to make the coin to work from.

The wealthiest people in the United States are also the ones most coddled by the government's "fucked up shit" programs. Its no accident, and has as much to do with keeping a line of Bill Gates's from forming outside the PBE finance office as it does with general political greed.

>>10973
>unorganized mob violence against some government over reach. The limitations of this approach become apparently quickly as casualties mount
Please read that ten or twenty times, then get back to me as to why we should wait to do this part:

>at which point the guys who are "serious" and have their own personal shit somewhat together start looking to organize. The first guys to raise a flag, not sound completely crazy or retarded, and who manages to live long enough to set an example, will end up with those people rallying under them and an organization is born.

Because *that* is my entire point. Why on earth would anyone advocate waiting for mass casualties to reveal limitations that we know in advance are there BEFORE we start to organize our shit? Wouldn't it make vastly more sense to start the vetting process now, and develop the sort of relationships with friends, coworkers, and neighbors, that would allow for a much less bloody, much less chaotic start?

And I don't mean raising bloody "we're a militia, come join us!" banner, but turning coworkers into PT buddies and range-day partners, so that there's some mutual trust when it comes to shooting. Developing a network of people who can be called instead of 911, so that if I have a problem that I don't want 911 involved in, I know who to call in advance.

Let me throw an example your way of what I'm talking about: A couple weeks ago, I got a phone call from a coworker. He said his neighbor had called him, he'd seen somebody prowling around the house. My buddy calls me, I immediately grab the gear belt and rifle and haul ass across town to see what's up. I'd been at his place enough to know what lights were on, so as soon as I'd checked the doors, I called my buddy and let him know what I'd found (a lot of nothing). Took me something like 9 minutes from the time I answered the phone to the time I'd checked his doors.

Now, what do you figure my buddy will do the next time he's got trouble? He knows I will drop whatever I'm doing to race across town to help out, do you figure that makes him more or less likely to call me if raging hordes of cannibalistic San Franciscans show up? Do you think it makes it more or less likely that I can call him for help if we have a history of trading favors? I mean I drove him to Tulsa for an eye appointment, then he helped me move, then I did the late-night house call...

That's the sort of thing that cells are built on before the shooting starts. I know this guy pretty well, and I can trust him. We're politically agreeable, too. If either of us planned on staying in this town, it wouldn't be hard for us to (after a couple of conversations to determine direction and scale) recruit a few more like-minded folks with the goal of looking out for each other.

A cell of four guys in a town of 10,000 is both hard to find and extremely dangerous.

From there, it's just a matter of knowing people (but not necessarily telling them what's up) in the next town over, and so on. That way, when the shooting starts, the cells are already in existence, and all that remains is for the C3-gifted people to organize supplies, determine what cell does what, and channel intel to the right people.

>>10973
I need to add that I completely agree with your point on funding. We'd also need a more-or-less legitimate shadow gov't to be acting i support of right from the get-go so that there would be a transfer o power as things progressed instead of a power vacuum as regime forces pulled out.

>Because *that* is my entire point. Why on earth would anyone advocate waiting for mass casualties to reveal limitations that we know in advance are there BEFORE we start to organize our shit?

Because no one will listen to you if casualties aren't mounting.

Nobody will care. The five guys you know who might sign up early do not a movement make, and while small and isolated are easy pickings for the usual bullshit.

The advantage of chaos is the size of it. Its big, hard to track and hard to contain. It gives you time to organize where there is a chance you won't be squished like a bug because you're hidden amongst the ground clutter. Chaos is cover and concealment for fledgling organizations. Without it, you're a standing target in an open field.

>>10976
Okay, that's a fair point. I'd still advocate folks organizing their own cells, but having people that can be called at 3 AM and will show up ready to hide a body is just good policy. If those cells need to wait for armageddon to start linking up, so be it.

>>10977

> I'd still advocate folks organizing their own cells

Lurker here, but sounds like what you're talking about is finding, training with, and generally hanging out with like minded people. People you can come to trust. Am I reading you right?

>>10979
Yes, basically.

>>10980

Sounds much like networking as much as cell organization. Good idea.

>>10982
Cell organization is a question that will be answered when things happen. People in other cells don't need to know where I live, or my name, or anything about me, other than "X234 sends the following message".

Networking is what lets me find the sort of people I trust to be in my cell. No man operates alone, and if we don't spend time now finding the people we can trust to watch our backs, it will be too late. Which is my point here: >>10948

Except it also pisses me off when people who talk like they're going to be the Wolverines never talk about PT as well. I get that most of us don't currently have the fitness level of the average 0311/11B, but damnit, we need to be working on that just as often as we discuss guns, tactics, and other mental shit.

Even if it's just training for a quarterly biathlon (which completely smoked me!), at least it's better than sitting on our asses drinking while the enemy is training.

>>10986

> Except it also pisses me off when people who talk like they're going to be the Wolverines never talk about PT as well.

Well, yeah. Some level of physical fitness is required. THE HAPPENING won't be fought from a hoveround.

Chin up bar, kettlebells, running... do something.

>>10979
Have fun when you find out bill joe is a ATF, FBI, or other undercover agent and you get arrested because in time you said the government needs to be overthrown.

>>10988
There are ways to be careful, and the best of them is to maintain a low fucking profile. If the FBI wants to pay some guy to be UC at my aircraft hangar for a decade in order to make a case against me, they can go ahead. UCs are valuable assets, they don't waste them infiltrating every boring-ass job where there's a couple guys that go shooting on Saturdays and run biathlons every quarter.

Most of his reports will look like "On Saturday, we went to the range. Soren bitched about the gov't, talked about his anarchist ideals, then we went to his house and ate tacos before he went to church. This assignment is bullshit, he never does anything interesting. Dude works out, shoots, and then does normal suburban white guy bullshit, and that's all he's done for years. All he's going to do for the next decade is kill my career, I haven't seen him commit even a single crime. I'm not even sure he speeds, he never does when he's driving me somewhere."

And general rule of thumb is that if anyone talks about violent action, he's the TLA plant anyways.

>And general rule of thumb is that if anyone talks about violent action, he's the TLA plant anyways.

So much this. Think and plan and prepare, but the first guy to yell "It's GO TIME!" when the world isn't already burning down around your house is almost certainly one of the other guys.

>When you've finally had enough and you're ready to act, grab your rifle and run outside.

>If you're the only one standing out there with a rifle, then it isn't time yet.

I forget where I read that, but I like it.