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File 138443470457.jpg - (563.21KB , 1800x740 , image.jpg )
8956 No. 8956 ID: 7c8dbe
So why is the German military so shit? Throughout history they only fucked up time and time again, Napoleon being a good example(although half the region was on his side) they lost both world wars and have permanently become a pacifist society. Why do we like them again?
16 posts omitted. Last 50 shown. Expand all images
>> No. 8973 ID: 52b35a
File 138505852383.jpg - (44.96KB , 322x380 , bfc03.jpg )
>The SS Divisions were a mixed bag
>Not mentioning best SS divison

Never even grew to platoon strength, vast majority of those who joined did so to sabotage the unit from within.
>> No. 8974 ID: 1bddb7
File 138507987084.jpg - (135.64KB , 524x640 , Five kamikaze pilots playing with a puppy, May 26,.jpg )
>theres probably not a historian out there that will deny the germans were the best trained and most efficient ground force in WWII

>germans in wwii
>best trained
See that link I already posted.

>most efficient
Only at murdering civilians. Their logistics and production was fucked, there was so much wastage of material it's absurd. We're talking about issuing tailored combat uniforms and helmet covers made of three layers of fabric.

Actually the Waffen SS was at about parity in regards to equipment.

>I would not describe the SS as poorly disciplined.

They were a bunch of war criminals who raped and murdered their way across Russia.

Though I'll give the benefit of the doubt to members of armor units, but "less likely to have committed war crimes than the landsers!" still isn't a desirable description.

>There were even plans to make an SS version of the Luftwaffe, late in the war.

IIRC the reason they weren't formed was because some general in the Luftwaffe managed to convince Hitler that ramming airplanes into bombers wasn't a "germanic" way to die or something like that.

There were also plans to use Hitler Youth members trained to fly gliders to fly an even simpler version of the Komet.
>> No. 8975 ID: 263d6c
File 13850844219.jpg - (101.51KB , 896x672 , German WW2 Natter (Viper) Bachem Ba 349A-1 (BP-20).jpg )
>There were also plans to use Hitler Youth members trained to fly gliders to fly an even simpler version of the Komet.
You mean the Natter? A disposable vertical launch bomber interceptor rocket plane. Solid fuel booster rockets got it up and the Komet bi-fuel rocket motor quickly got it to the altitude of the bombers. The nose was packed with 24 rockets that would be fired at enemy bombers and then the pilot would bail out as the Natter had no landing gear and had the flight characteristics of a brick. Range was very short, so the Natter was conceived as being stationed at big industrial centers (or other inviting targets). They were truck-mobile and did not depend on airfields, juts raised for launch, like a V-2 Rocket and launched at groups of bombers. Even made as cheap as possible, a disposable rocket fighter is still wasteful and the Natter never got the nod, nixed by the nattering nabobs of negativity.

- German WW2 Natter (Viper) Bachem Ba 349A-1 (BP-20) rocket interceptor w solid fuel booster rockets attached.
>> No. 8976 ID: 263d6c
File 138508493562.jpg - (558.53KB , 1952x1458 , German WW2 Natter Ba349 rocket interceptor replica.jpg )
The Bachem Ba 349 Natter (English: Viper, Adder) was a World War II German point-defence rocket powered interceptor, which was to be used in a very similar way to a manned surface-to-air missile. After a vertical take-off, which eliminated the need for airfields, the majority of the flight to the Allied bombers was to be controlled by an autopilot. The primary mission of the relatively untrained pilot, was to aim the aircraft at its target bomber and fire its armament of rockets. The pilot and the fuselage containing the rocket motor would then land under separate parachutes, while the nose section was disposable. The only manned vertical take-off flight on 1 March 1945 ended in the death of the test pilot, Lothar Sieber.

In 1943 with Luftwaffe air superiority being challenged by the Allies over the Reich, radical innovations were required to overcome the crisis. Surface-to-air missiles appeared to be a promising approach to counter the Allied strategic bombing offensive; a variety of projects were started, but invariably problems with the guidance and homing systems prevented any of these from attaining operational status. Providing the missile with a pilot, who could operate a weapon during the brief terminal approach phase, offered a solution. Submissions for a simple target defence interceptor were requested by the Luftwaffe in early 1944 under the umbrella of the "Emergency Fighter Program". A number of simple designs were proposed, including the Heinkel P.1077 Julia, in which the pilot lay prone (on his stomach), to reduce the frontal area. The Julia was the front-runner for the contract. The initial plan was to launch the aircraft vertically, but this concept was later changed to a conventional horizontal take-off from a tricycle-wheeled trolley, similar to that used by the first eight prototypes of the Arado Ar 234 jet reconnaissance bomber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachem_Ba_349

- Bachem Natter replica, Fantasy Of Flight Museum, Florida
>> No. 8977 ID: 263d6c
File 138508508224.jpg - (811.17KB , 1049x1575 , German WW2 Natter Ba349 rocket interceptor replica.jpg )
Bachem Ba 349 „Natter“ M23, replica at the „Militärgeschichtliche Sammlung“ at Lager Heuberg in Stetten am kalten Markt; Baden-Württemberg, Germany. The pilot Lothar Sieber gets final instructions from the engineer Erich Bachem.
>> No. 8978 ID: 263d6c
File 138508510210.jpg - (346.21KB , 800x1200 , German WW2 Natter Ba349 rocket interceptor replica.jpg )
>> No. 8979 ID: 263d6c
File 13850854798.jpg - (1.07MB , 2500x1429 , German WW2 Natter Ba 349A rocket interceptor cutaw.jpg )
Here, you can see the recovery parachute by the rear to save the rocket motor after the fuel was consumed. The front part of the plane breaks away and crashes (hopefully with the pilot away in his own parachute).
>> No. 8980 ID: 263d6c
File 138508548842.jpg - (888.52KB , 1600x1134 , German WW2 Natter Ba 349A rocket interceptor cutaw.jpg )
>> No. 8981 ID: aade67
Onless I'm going senile and have misremembered, it's pretty widely accepted by historians that:

Wehrmacht/Heer- well trained, well disciplined troops. Skilled, competent and generally behaved honorably. Obeyed hitler because soldiers are supposed to follow orders.

Waffen-SS- psychotic assholes famous for committing atrocities against civilians wherever they went. Also famous for taking massive losses whenever faced with opponents who could shoot back. These are the guys who ran the death camps and burned most of eastern europe to the ground. They often fought to the death without hesitation, but are widely accepted as having been far better at the dying than the fighting part. No one misses them, not even the germans. They did have awesome uniforms though.
>> No. 8982 ID: 263d6c
File 138508645358.jpg - (495.11KB , 1024x832 , German WW2 Natter Ba349 rocket interceptor wreckag.jpg )
Back to the drawing board.
>> No. 8983 ID: 263d6c
File 13850864841.jpg - (562.87KB , 2214x1380 , German WW2 Natter Ba 349B rocket interceptor 1.jpg )
>> No. 8984 ID: 263d6c
File 138508655462.jpg - (117.68KB , 1920x1280 , German WW2 Natter Ba 349 rocket interceptor 1.jpg )
Sounds about right.
>> No. 8985 ID: 263d6c
File 138508660695.jpg - (110.21KB , 1024x768 , German WW2 Natter Ba 349 launch rails 1.jpg )
>> No. 8986 ID: 1bddb7
Nope, the Focke-Wulf Volksjager (Not to be confused with the He 162), basically a wooden Komet with 20 rounds per gun instead of 60.

There was also the BV 40, a wood-frame glider with (IIRC) a single 30mm cannon and 15 rounds that would have been towed above allied bomber formations by a Bf109 and then released.

>and generally behaved honorably

Nope. The myth of the "Unblemished Wehrmacht" is just that, a myth. Even before you go into the fact that German records indicated they were willing participants, there's no way the SS and OrPo/Einsatzgruppen could have committed the atrocities on the level they did without help from the Wehrmacht.

>Obeyed hitler because soldiers are supposed to follow orders.

Well that and there was the oath they had to swear to him:
>"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."

And the fact that by the start of the war, the Nazis had largely succeeded in indoctrinating the military in their ideology.
>Acting on his own initiative, the Defence Minister Werner von Blomberg had purged the Army of all its Jewish personnel in February 1934. On December 8, 1938, the Army leadership had instructed all officers to be thoroughly well versed in National Socialism and to apply its values in all situations. Starting in February 1939, pamphlets were issued that were made required reading in the Army. The content can be gauged by the titles: "The Officer and Politics", "Hitler's World Historical Mission", "The Army in the Third Reich", "The Battle for German Living Space", "Hands off Danzig!", and "The Final Solution of the Jewish Question in the Third Reich".
>> No. 8987 ID: 963c4b
File 138510587656.jpg - (129.24KB , 1290x800 , German WW2 Heinkel He 162 'Volksjager' u.jpg )
What I remember about the Heinkel He 162 Salamander 'Volksjäger' was that it was made out of plywood, was unstable, but it had an ejection seat.
>> No. 8988 ID: 963c4b
File 138510631998.png - (1.71MB , 1280x929 , German WW2 Heinkel He 162 'Volksjager' u.png )
>> No. 8989 ID: 263d6c
File 138513407177.jpg - (138.18KB , 1280x878 , German WW2 Focke-Wulf Volksjager plywood jet fight.jpg )
The Focke-Wulf Volksjäger, meaning "People's Fighter" in German, was a German rocket-powered emergency fighter project for the Luftwaffe. It was designed by the Focke-Wulf industries towards the end of World War II as part of the defense effort against the devastating allied bombing raids.
Focke-Wulf presented two Volksjäger projects to the Luftwaffe in early 1945. This rocket-powered design corresponds to project number two. Neither of them was given an RLM aircraft designation.
The Focke-Wulf Volksjäger was a small aircraft with a wingspan of 4.8 m (15 ft 9 in) and a length of 5.3 m (17 ft 5 in). Power was to be provided by a Walter HWK 109-509 A-2 rocket engine that would enable it to reach speeds nearing 1000 km/h. Armament was to be two 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannons located under the fuselage.
In order to save strategic materials the wings of the Fw Volksjäger were built of wood. The aircraft had no wheels, only a landing skid. It was designed to take off on a detachable dolly. Once airborne it would speed almost vertically towards the bomber combat box where it would fire its cannons. Its effectiveness was curtailed by the fact that it would have only about 15 minutes of combat action time. Test flights for this aircraft were scheduled to be carried out between May and June 1945. Three units of the Volksjäger were under construction at the time of the Surrender of Nazi Germany.
The Focke-Wulf Volksjäger should not be confused with the He 162, also known as Volksjäger, nor the Focke-Wulf Volksflugzeug, the first Focke-Wulf project designed to be powered with a BMW 003 turbojet as an actual contract competitor to the He 162A, whose original Volksjäger competition in the second half of 1944 required the BMW 003 powerplant's use.

- Pencil drawing of the Focke-Wulf Volksjäger 2, a 1945 Luftwaffe interceptor project
>> No. 8990 ID: 263d6c
File 138576411049.jpg - (938.31KB , 4620x2956 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88 in Italy ca 1940.jpg )
One important German bomber I forgot to mention was the Junkers 88 "Flying Fishbowl", a large twin engine bomber that had the crew in the bulbous transparent nose of the aircraft, making communication easier, as opposed to a dispersed crew using intercoms. But this compact crew arrangement made them vulnerable if the nose section took fire. During the Battle of Britain, the Ju 88 bombers suffered heavy losses so they had their nose armor and defensive MGs increased.

The Junkers Ju 88 was a World War II German Luftwaffe twin-engine, multi-role aircraft. Designed by Hugo Junkers' company in the mid-1930s to be a so-called Schnellbomber which would be too fast for any of the fighters of its era to intercept, it suffered from a number of technical problems during the later stages of its development and early operational roles, but became one of the most versatile combat aircraft of the war. Affectionately known as "The Maid of all Work" (Mädchen für Alles), the Ju 88 proved to be suited to almost any role. Like a number of other Luftwaffe bombers, it was used successfully as a bomber, dive bomber, night fighter, torpedo bomber, reconnaissance aircraft, heavy fighter, and even as a flying bomb during the closing stages of conflict.

Despite its protracted development, the aircraft became one of the Luftwaffe's most important assets. The assembly line ran constantly from 1936 to 1945, and more than 16,000 Ju 88s were built in dozens of variants, more than any other twin-engine German aircraft of the period. Throughout the production, the basic structure of the aircraft remained unchanged.
>> No. 8991 ID: 263d6c
File 138576431025.jpg - (1.02MB , 4572x2984 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88 in Italy ca 1940 2.jpg )
>> No. 8992 ID: 263d6c
File 138576435493.jpg - (976.55KB , 2816x2112 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88 R-1 nightfighter FuG 202 .jpg )
Ju 88 R-1 nightfighter, Werknummer 360043, in the RAF museum at RAF Hendon. This aircraft is well known because of its crew defecting to the UK in 1943. The antenna of the FuG 202 Lichtenstein B/C radar installation can be seen; although these particular items are replicas, as the entire radar system was removed from the aircraft for evaluation during the war.
>> No. 8993 ID: 263d6c
File 138576483690.jpg - (287.50KB , 1800x905 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88D in the National Museum o.jpg )
Battle of Britain:
By August 1940, A-1s and A-5s were reaching operational units, just as the battle was intensifying. The Battle of Britain proved very costly. Its higher speed did not prevent Ju 88 losses exceeding those of its Dornier Do 17 and Heinkel He 111 stablemates, despite being deployed in smaller numbers than either. Ju 88 losses over Britain in 1940 amounted to 313 machines between July–October 1940. One notable incident involved ground fighting between the crew of an A-1 and soldiers from the London Irish Rifles during the Battle of Graveney Marsh on 27 September 1940. It was the last action between British and foreign military forces on British mainland soil. Do 17 and He 111 losses for the same period amounted to 132 and 252 machines destroyed respectively. A series of field kits were made to make it less vulnerable, including the replacement of the single MG 15 rear machine gun by a twin-barreled MG 81Z machine gun, and additional cockpit armour.

It was during the closing days of the Battle of Britain that the flagship Ju 88 A-4 went into service. Although slower yet than the A-1, nearly all of the troubles of the A-1 were gone, and finally the Ju 88 matured into a superb warplane. The A-4 actually saw additional improvements including more powerful engines, but, unlike other aircraft in the Luftwaffe, did not see a model code change. The Ju 88 C-series also benefited from the A-4 changes, and when the Luftwaffe finally did decide on a new heavy fighter, the Ju 88C was a powerful, refined aircraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_88

- Ju 88D in the World War II Gallery at the National Museum of the United States Air Force
>> No. 8994 ID: 263d6c
File 138576500752.jpg - (349.89KB , 1800x1389 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88D cockpit 1.jpg )
The German Ju 88 was one of the most versatile airplanes of World War II. It operated in nearly every kind of combat role, including dive bomber, level bomber, night fighter, day interceptor, photographic reconnaissance, tank destroyer and even as an unpiloted missile. The Ju 88 made its first flight on Dec. 21, 1936, and hundreds remained in use when the war ended in 1945.

The airplane on display, a Ju 88D-1/Trop (later designated Ju 88D-3), is a long-range photographic reconnaissance version modified for tropical use. Known as the Baksheesh, it was the best known Ju 88 of the 15,000 built. Completed in June 1943, this aircraft was delivered to Romania, an ally of Germany during WWII. In July 1943, a disillusioned Romanian pilot flew the aircraft to Cyprus to defect to British forces there. The British Royal Air Force turned over Baksheesh to the U.S. Army Air Forces. After Wright Field test pilots flew the aircraft extensively, the USAAF stored it in the Arizona desert after the end of WWII. Shipped to the museum in January 1960, Baksheesh is painted in the Romanian Air Force markings it carried in July 1943. http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=506

Armament: Six 7.92mm machine guns
Engines: Two Junkers Jumo 211s of 1,200 hp each
Maximum speed: 295 mph
Cruising speed: 225 mph
Range: 1,553 mph
Ceiling: 27,880 ft.
Span: 65 ft. 10 in.
Length: 47 ft. 1 in.
Height: 15 ft. 11 in.
Weight: 26,700 lbs.
>> No. 8995 ID: 263d6c
File 138576520427.jpg - (295.17KB , 1461x886 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88s over Norway, 1943.jpg )
Ju 88s of II./KG 30 photographed over Norway, 1943
>> No. 8996 ID: 263d6c
File 138576533463.jpg - (359.76KB , 2542x1473 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88 1.jpg )
>> No. 8997 ID: 263d6c
File 138576555183.jpg - (483.75KB , 1762x963 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88 cutaway 1.jpg )
>> No. 8998 ID: 263d6c
File 138576595980.jpg - (939.58KB , 3267x2450 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 88 A4-D-1 1.jpg )
Junkers Ju 88 A4/D-1
>> No. 8999 ID: 07d690
Does anyone know about the men of the kriegsmarine? I've seen a few documentaries and read one book that claim that not withstanding a few exceptions they were generally honourable sailors who followed the rules of war. I've never really seen any true example of this outside these sources so I've never been 100% on it.

I also know that in terms of aviation, the Germans sat there for a few years wasting both resources and design teams doing nothing of great value from 41ish-43ish before going headlong into fighter development. This was based on the high command being unfocused which ultimatly meant that many of the 1945 wonder weapons showed up too late. If they had started right away would it have changed the war? Yes. Would they changed the outcome? I highly doubt it.

The Luftwaffe had poor bombers because they were not meant to besiege cities, they were meant to support the fast moving units of the Wehrmacht. As such when it came to that they suffered, and for whatever reason German industry couldn't stop making over complex heavy bombers that failed to reach any level of operational status.
>> No. 9000 ID: 263d6c
File 138592547169.jpg - (2.23MB , 3000x2057 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 87B-2 Stuka pilot training.jpg )
You mean those jerks in the submarines and the commerce raiders who were torpedoing and shelling civilian merchantmen?

I can't really complain about civilian commerce being attacked. Anything of economic importance was a legitimate target in such a total war.

Reminds me of P-47 Thunderbolt and other ground attack aircraft pilots were instructed to attack locomotives on sight. Especially to blast the driving compartment where the engineers were as an experienced driver and engineer took years to train and were nearly irreplaceable. A pilot asked if intentionally attacking civilian locomotive engineers was a war crime. "Don't worry about that," was the reply.
>> No. 9001 ID: 1bddb7
>honourable sailors who followed the rules of war

Depends on how honorable you consider unrestricted submarine warfare against civilian shipping or murdering POWs. It's also quite obscure, but Kriegsmarine marines were involved with the holocaust in Latvia.

But yeah, the surface arm of the Kriegsmarine was probably the least criminal part of the German military, generally because at most guys on ships or at naval bases won't have much of an opportunity to do anything worse than murder a random civilian for saying something mean about Herr Hitler. Happened more than a few times in Denmark and Holland going by some post-war prosecutions I read a while back and going by personal accounts from family in Denmark.

Though once the crews got turned into infantry there was, of course, behavior typical of the "honorable" German soldier, such as the killings of civilians, stuff like that.
>> No. 9002 ID: ade567

Please get "proof" from a website that isn't a soviet shill factory. Thx
>> No. 9003 ID: 1bddb7
File 138614967423.jpg - (323.00KB , 1002x1575 , btnx.jpg )
>translated archive documents are shilling

>> No. 9005 ID: ade567

Well, we all KNOW the Soviets never lied about anything on reports... R-R-Right guys?

sure is SIDF in here
>> No. 9006 ID: 1bddb7
File 138622665682.png - (22.72KB , 501x585 , nazi.png )
And your reaction is pretty much exactly what I expected.
>technical documents and intelligence reports by engineers and the guys in charge of figuring out how to best kill the enemy are fake and lies

>claims from fascist propagandists and the Hitlery Channel are above reproach, Tiger II never penetrated frontally! Kill ratios! 8.8cm effective at 4km! Whittman destroyed more vehicles at Villers Bocage than where actually there!

If you're gonna namefag, you should probably go with "GoebbelsLuver69."
>> No. 9007 ID: aade67
Wait, seriously, we're talking about world war II, and you guys (not all of you) are saying that any military unit that attacked civilians is automatically as bad as the SS?

Every military power in WWII had a policy of attacking civilian populations. However, they usually did it as a side effect of attacking anything remotely military and not being particularly discriminatory. Sometimes military units would also attack civilians or POWs out of poor discipline.

The SS were bad by even the low standards of the time because they attacked civilian units that weren't remotely connected to any military objective. And they did it under orders that any sane group of people would realize were completely immoral and illegal. And on top of that, they obeyed enthusiastically.
>> No. 9010 ID: ade567
File 138636682537.jpg - (45.33KB , 800x525 , lelelelelel.jpg )

>>claims from fascist propagandists and the Hitlery Channel are above reproach, Tiger II never penetrated frontally! Kill ratios! 8.8cm effective at 4km! Whittman destroyed more vehicles at Villers Bocage than where actually there!

Never said this. Top lel though.

Wow, it's like I'm really in a Wargaming.net forum.
>> No. 9011 ID: 1bddb7
File 13864001371.jpg - (787.42KB , 2936x1276 , fedunin-vtorzhenie.jpg )
I think most of us would agree that civilian casualties as part of a campaign against industry or attacking merchant shipping is not a war crime, versus air raids specifically targeting residential areas or having your soldiers wage a war of total extermination against civilian populations.

And again: The Wehrmacht did not commit war crimes out of poor discipline, for example during the invasion of Poland, personnel involved in the many mass killings of civilians received blanket pardons from Hitler himself, during the invasion of Russia soldiers could only be prosecuted for rape if the commander of their unit requested it, and in Greece the Wehrmacht (under Rommel at the time) disarmed and then murdered some 5000 Italian soldiers who surrendered to them after the Italian government surrendered to the Allies.

What a coincidence, you sound just like one of the proto-nazis from the German HT subforum.
>> No. 9013 ID: ade567

Why don't you come up with other sources to verify what you've said?

I mean, surely you could use something other than Ad Hominem on people who disagree... Right?
>> No. 9014 ID: 1bddb7
I don't see you posting anything to disprove my cites, beyond "archive documents are propaganda!"
>> No. 9015 ID: ade567

Except that Soviet-Era archives aren't exactly the most accurate because... Yanno, the political climate permeated every facet of that society, so posting "documented archives" from that era are often incorrect or outright lies. Please, if you want to push the claim that German armor wasn't all it was cracked up to be, find reputable sources that also say the same thing, rather than just expecting me to prove you wrong.

When you make a point, please, source multiple, valid sources, and not one SIDF "declassified Soviet-era Archives" which are known to be grossly exaggerated and/or outright lies.

I mean, even by general observation, anyone can see that the Germans did very well against the Soviets during WWII, so you saying the Germans were shit is simply incorrect. And if you insist on saying that German armor, etc was so shit, then why were the Germans able to do so well against the Soviets and other allied powers? I mean, it's not like they didn't effectively control Europe in 1940 or anything... Right?

Not to mention that you only seem to want to talk about the few negative aspects and overblow them to make it seem like things were far worse than they actually were. Most/all of you posts are extremely biased against Germany. The only thing you mention about the Germans is how they were only good at killing civilians and getting blown up by T-34s apparently. If you're going to incessantly shit on a side in a war, you could at least be fair and show the negatives of the other sides as well, but you make no effort to do so.

And as for the SS and Wehrmacht being nothing but war criminals, what about the advancing Soviet forces? They were probably saints, right? Never committed a war crime ever. Lets get real, the Soviets were just as bad as the SS if not worse. Lets not pretend that the only bad guys in history were Germans.

tl;dr Please use multiple, VALID sources with accurate information, and don't search for shady sources that happen to align and reinforce your political narrative.
>> No. 9016 ID: 1bddb7
This isn't British libel court buddy, burden of proof is on you to prove that the stuff I've posted isn't accurate.

>Most/all of you posts are extremely biased against Germany. The only thing you mention about the Germans is how they were only good at killing civilians and getting blown up by T-34s apparently. If you're going to incessantly shit on a side in a war, you could at least be fair and show the negatives of the other sides as well, but you make no effort to do so.

Posts that don't make Germany look good in a thread asking about why the German military was shit? Perish the thought!

>And as for the SS and Wehrmacht being nothing but war criminals, what about the advancing Soviet forces? They were probably saints, right? Never committed a war crime ever. Lets get real, the Soviets were just as bad as the SS if not worse. Lets not pretend that the only bad guys in history were Germans.

Nice historical revisionism there bro, but you forgot to tell us that Nazism wasn't bad because Andrew Jackson ordered the genocide of native Americas.

Anyways. "An eye for an eye, a head for a head." It's entirely unsurprising that Soviet troops committed war crimes, especially second and third line units which would have had more time to linger in areas, as they advanced into German held areas and Germany proper, and encountered what the Germans had done. When you wage a war of total extermination, do not expect kind treatment when you get defeated.

But again, this is not a thread about Soviet or Allied war crimes. It's about why the Germans can't win wars and are barely competent at handing out water bottles to Afghan civies.
>> No. 9017 ID: 7118d2
File 138649222073.jpg - (94.13KB , 303x419 , disappointed.jpg )
>This isn't British libel court buddy, burden of proof is on you to prove that the stuff I've posted isn't accurate.
>burden of proof is on you

Learn how the burden of proof thing actually works
Stop being mad
Stop being a dick
Stop being surprised when no one takes you seriously
>> No. 9018 ID: ade567
File 138649642211.jpg - (23.83KB , 155x202 , lol5.jpg )

>>And as for the SS and Wehrmacht being nothing but war criminals, what about the advancing Soviet forces? They were probably saints, right? Never committed a war crime ever. Lets get real, the Soviets were just as bad as the SS if not worse. Lets not pretend that the only bad guys in history were Germans.

>Nice historical revisionism there bro, but you forgot to tell us that Nazism wasn't bad because Andrew Jackson ordered the genocide of native Americas.

What historical revisionism? I like how you revert to Ad Hominem every time you are challenged.


Pmuch this.
>> No. 9019 ID: 1bddb7
File 138663735590.gif - (1.15MB , 499x281 , 1380336800283.gif )
>What historical revisionism?

Your attempt to marginalize German crimes with the old "BUT BUT BUT MAO AND STALIN KILLED MORE PEOPLE!" chestnut.

And it's funny how the guy whining about ad hominems is trying to use an ad hominem tu quoque argument.
>> No. 9021 ID: ade567
File 138664036478.jpg - (112.50KB , 946x479 , hatler.jpg )

You're not attempting to marginalize Soviet war crimes by not even mentioning them in the slightest? I never mentioned Mao, lel. Even the airsofters at Red Alliance are more balanced than you in their telling of history. Top fucking kek.

It's almost like there is no limit on the words you can put in my mouth.

GG bru.
>> No. 9022 ID: d5be46
This thread is like the Battle of Kursk except it's shitposting instead of tank combat.
>> No. 9023 ID: 71527a
This thread started shit, and just got shittier. I was gonna lock it, but you know what, I'm just going to sit back and watch it burn as an example of how not to have a discussion on historical military effectiveness.

You should all know that the truth cannot be taken from just one source. If you really want to figure out the historical effectiveness of say, the Heer, look at the russian records, look at the german records, look at the british, american, etc. etc.

Then look at scholarly analysis of these records, peer reviewed papers, military academy lectures, etc.

Saying THE GERMANS ALWAYS LIED or THE RUSSIANS ALWAYS LIED just leads to two people smacking eachother around with one set of facts neither party is able to budge from because no one is willing to consider, you know, the other thousands of hours of scholarly analysis since 1945.
>> No. 9024 ID: 263d6c
File 138681412146.jpg - (580.17KB , 840x720 , German WW2 Junkers Ju 87 Stuka stamp.jpg )
Feh! I provided good content and pictures reinforcing my assertion that German bombers in WW2 left much to be desired.
>> No. 9025 ID: 71527a
You of course are exempt from my diatribes, BG. Have mercy on my Fleshy soul.
>> No. 9026 ID: 89a9f9
Main reason Germany is bad@war is a combination of their military being primarily defensively focused for most of history ("Die Wacht am Rhein"), their commanders focusing on tactical victories instead of strategic ones, and outdated logistics. This is the country that thought they could invade Russia with their logistics train being mainly comprised of horses, which turned out about as well as it did for Napoleon, except they didn't even manage to capture Moscow.

"Why the Germans Lose at War" by Macksey is a good starting point, "Why the Allies Won" by Overy, "Cross of Iron" by Mosier and "The Wages of Destruction" by Tooze are others.

As to the idea that German equipment was somehow "better," that's some branding stuff dating from around WWI. Before then Germany had a reputation for making cheap, shoddy, ugly things. So around 1907 the Deutscher Werkbund was formed to both standardize everything (from tea kettles and filing cabinets to fonts and factory floor plans) and improve the image of German industry, and by the 30s they had largely succeeded in getting rid of the "HECHO EN DEUTSCHLAND" reputation. However during the war this came back to bite them in the ass, as pretty much all of their equipment was at parity with Allied or Soviet equipment but was more complex, less reliable and used more resources.
>> No. 9027 ID: 7d9fe3
Because they try to take on people who outnumber and outproduce them. Even when they DON'T do this, they fail to fully commit until it's too late.


Milan and three neighboring towns were able to field a LARGER army than the fucking holy roman empire. At the time, you have the excuse of them not being a single entity themselves, but later on, in ww2, you see the oh-so-efficent and logical deutsch failing to work round the clock despite being in a fight to the death with more than one other nation.
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