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Patches and Stickers for sale here

File 147960520728.jpg - (131.98KB , 813x360 , 200803_P1.jpg )
101876 No. 101876 ID: 1e7323
I've decided it's time to build a precision rifle and start building up a better technical understand of long range shooting. I'm working my way through TiborasaurusRex's series if anyone else is interested.

In my part of the country, there are no ranges over 300 yards in any reasonable driving distance, but I'd still like to invest long term for if/when I move for a rifle 1-2 MOA at 600+ yards. I don't (currently) rifle hunt, so this is purely a long range target project. I'm relatively new to the precision field so I'd like some sanity check on my choices. Budget is flexible here but I'd like to stay in the neighborhood of $750-1000.

Caliber: .308 / 7.62x51
It seems to have acceptable BC and kinetic energy at 1000 yards. Frankly I'm most interested in ammo availability. I don't reload yet so being able to find match grade locally is a good bonus. If anyone has a preferred match brand, I'd like to hear it.

Rifle: Savage Model 10T
I've really liked the AccuTrigger and seems a popular base for "budget" long range builds. The version with detachable magazines is $100 more but does not seem particularly important to me. A threaded barrel would be more interesting if I had access to private land to shoot with a suppressor, but since I can only shoot at public ranges I'm using earpro anyways.

Rifle (alt): Ruger American
The initial reviews seem positive and it's $100 cheaper than the Savage. Played with one at the fun store and the trigger felt better than expected (can be adjusted down to 2.5# even). Budget isn't that tight so if the Savage is generally better, so be it.

Optics: Primary Arms 4-14X44mm
Other than basic calculations, I don't have much experience with MOA or MIL; metric doesn't scare me so I'm agnostic about the difference at this stage. My spotting scope is just plain glass with no reticle so there's nothing to match there. I own a few Primary Arms red dots and they are great. The 4-14x seems well reviewed and has MIL/MIL reticle/turrets.

Rings: two Vortex low mount rings
I don't know. They're not cheap, not expensive, Vortex isn't junk and if I go with the Savage the low mounts seem best given how the rail sits.

Log book: Storm tactical 3 ring binder
This was already actually given to me as a gift. I'm open to suggestions once the pages run out though.

Ballistics calculator: Strelok
I run Android. If there's a better one or one worth paying for I'm all ears.

I'd love suggestions for reading if you have any.
Expand all images
>> No. 101879 ID: a5507d
>Budget is flexible here but I'd like to stay in the neighborhood of $750-1000.
I'd check our some Ruger no.1s, they're single shot rifles but they're pretty good
>> No. 101881 ID: a90ce2
File 147962031924.jpg - (341.16KB , 1139x854 , antique US Ruger No_1 8mm Remington Magnum 1.jpg )
I have been wanting to get a good deal on a Ruger No.1 for some time.
- US Ruger No.1 in 8mm Remington Magnum.
>> No. 101882 ID: a90ce2
File 147962037561.jpg - (342.38KB , 1139x854 , antique US Ruger No_1 8mm Remington Magnum 2.jpg )
The 8mm Magnum never caught on and is hard to find, but is a terrific elk round.
>> No. 101883 ID: a90ce2
File 147962042533.jpg - (146.82KB , 2667x672 , antique US Ruger No_ 1-B 7mm STW (Shooting Times W.jpg )
US Ruger No. 1-B 7mm STW (Shooting Times Westerner) in stainless steel.
>> No. 101884 ID: a90ce2
File 147962048896.jpg - (275.95KB , 820x1024 , antique US Ruger No_ 1 target rifle in _375 Weathe.jpg )
US Ruger No. 1 target rifle in .375 Weatherby Magnum.
Showing that she's not just a target rifle.
>> No. 101885 ID: a90ce2
File 147962054576.jpg - (419.48KB , 1280x960 , antique US Ruger No_ 1 7mm KCR magnum, pushing 140.jpg )
US Ruger No. 1 7mm KCR magnum, pushing 140 grain Triple Shock Barnes bullets at 3500 FPS.
>> No. 101886 ID: a5507d
I only mentioned the Ruger No.1 because I knew Bat Guano wouldn't be able to resist.
>> No. 101887 ID: 19518e
File 147962568238.jpg - (231.76KB , 1863x905 , sav.jpg )
Sub 800 yards, you might be able to go with a fast twist 5.56x45/.223 Rem. Hornady loads a lot of 75gr-ish stuff that performs quite well even past 600 yards.

Of course, if you want dat powah go .308 Win.

Have you considered scouring the shops for a used Savage? Just grab the action, get a Shilen barrel for Savage actions, and you will be on your way to an extremely high precision build. If you're not comfy/no room/no time/etc building it yourself, there's a lot of people that can do it for you and they don't often charge very much.

In canada there's Jerry, he's awesome.
>> No. 101888 ID: 19518e
File 147962581744.jpg - (1.36MB , 2992x3008 , dsfargege.jpg )
Shoots pretty gud, and that's factory 5 rounds.

if only I didn't have a heartbeat
>> No. 101889 ID: 454a4b
Real precision or multirole with some varmint pest control & hunting?
>> No. 101891 ID: 1e7323
File 147964757545.jpg - (87.14KB , 640x480 , army-navy-webley-1902-45x2-4-bpe.jpg )
Love me some falling blocks, but when I've looked all the No. 1's are $1000+ with no glass.

I'll poke around and see if there are builders. Used selection for bolt actions at my shops is kinda meh. Abstractly, how much more precision would going from a stock Savage barrel to a Shilen? Is it a 1 MOA kind of upgrade or more like 1/4 MOA?

Real precision. There's basically nowhere around me with centerfire rifle hunting otherwise I'd possibly consider a semi-auto platform.
>> No. 101893 ID: 19518e
>Abstractly, how much more precision would going from a stock Savage barrel to a Shilen? Is it a 1 MOA kind of upgrade or more like 1/4 MOA?

Savage barrels are pretty decent, but prefit for Savage barrels by Shilen or another high-end barrel maker is going to be better in a lot of ways; rather, it'll ensure consistency in the really tricky points of barrels like stress relief and stuff. In terms of a measurable increase in precision, there really aren't concrete numbers as it'll vary from barrel to barrel, rifle to rifle.

However, making it yourself/having someone build it will be more than just barrel. Luckily, the Savage action doesn't really require actual work, they're decent out of the box or out of an old hunting rifle. What you pretty much end up doing is getting a good stock, and when you send it to the guy, he installs the barrel and beds the stock with your action. Precision ends up being cumulative, and you'll see the large improvements to sub-half minute when you end up with a good target stock, bedding, quality barrel, and often a new trigger (I like my Timney, but there are other good triggers out there for Savage).

For reference, I got the old Savage action from a local fuddstore for 250 bucks. I sent it to Jerry, he put on the new barrel (custom order Shilen Match barrel, if you want to splurge the Select Match is 50$ more), bedded the stock (Ultimate Varmint stock, cost me 250 bucks) and shipped it back for 520 bucks. Keep in mind that's syrup monopoly money, you guys can probably do it for 40% less at least, I had to order a lot of stuff from across the border, with the shipping of the stock costing over 50 bucks, you guys don't even know. In the end with trigger and scope rail, I was 1300$ all in to my door (this includes firstborn shipping and arm+dick taxes).

You might think "why spend that much when I can get a Savage 10 for let me just peek at that link you posteHOLY FUCK they're that cheap? That's just unfair half of what they go for up here? Seriously those things are like 800 CAD, then 100 bucks of taxes and 50 bucks to have it shipped, and no that's not a hyperbole or anything, it's that much./tilt"

Well like I said, across the border you can definitely get barrels, stocks, triggers, shipping, and the work done for much, much, much, much less. Getting from 2 arcmin precision to 1 arcmin precision is cheap enough, but diminishing returns very rapidly set in for this kind of thing. So even if you can get a 10T for 500 Freedoms, finding a cheap old Savage action for pocket change and having work done on it might end up being a little bit more, but it'll shoot really well.

Depends if you want/need that level of precision though. You don't exactly need sub-half-arcmin to ring silhouette steel under 800.
>> No. 101894 ID: b70387
  Surprised the Ruger Precision Rifle hasn't come up yet. Ian McCollum of InRangeTV and Forgotten Weapons really likes his.
>> No. 101895 ID: b70387
TIGL has one, if I remember correctly.
>> No. 101897 ID: a90ce2
File 147968634160.jpg - (154.86KB , 2437x544 , antique US Sharps-Borchardt Schuetzen rifle 1.jpg )
If I was going to get a drop-block, I would prefer a schuetzen-style rifle.
- US Sharps-Borchardt Schuetzen rifle.
>> No. 101898 ID: a90ce2
File 14796863971.jpg - (136.12KB , 2239x544 , antique US Sharps Zishang _32-40 28-inch barrel 1.jpg )
US Sharps Zishang in .32-40 with a 28-inch barrel.
>> No. 101899 ID: a90ce2
File 147968685281.jpg - (679.01KB , 2352x1334 , antique US Sharps 1874 Hartford Model _50-90 heavy.jpg )
US Sharps 1874 Hartford Model in .50-90 with a heavy 30 inch barrel, weighing 14.5-lbs.
These heavy barrel monsters weigh a goddamn ton.
>> No. 101900 ID: caf239
I need to save up for a K31 for my long range rifle.

And fucking find one, it's getting harder.
>> No. 101902 ID: cca8bf
Went to the funstore yesterday and found a used Savage 10 with a choate stock and rings already installed for $600. It's in .223, which is not my preferred round but I'm still kicking it around. I'm still hunting for custom builders too.

I was looking at them, and it's certainly a good deal, but after glass it'd be almost a $2K rifle. Standardizing on Magpul AR10 mags though is a 10/10 choice.
>> No. 101904 ID: a90ce2
File 147977540695.jpg - (1.61MB , 3715x2089 , antique US Savage 10 FCP-SR.jpg )
What, one of these?
>> No. 101905 ID: a90ce2
File 14797754717.jpg - (442.63KB , 1600x1200 , antique US Savage 10 FP-SR _308 1.jpg )
Savage 10 FP-SR - .308
Bell and Carlson Medalist Tactical - grey spiderweb
EGW HD 20 MOA base
Burris Xtreme Tactical Rings - Low
Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP - MRAD reticle
Harris 6-9" leg notch swivel bipod w/alpha bravo lock
>> No. 101906 ID: a90ce2
File 14797757633.jpg - (1.03MB , 2592x1944 , antique US Savage Model 10FP _308 Choate stock Kon.jpg )
Savage Model 10FP in .308 win with a Choate tactical stock and a KonusPro M30 6.5-24x44 illuminated mil-dot reticle w/ open adjustable turrets. It sits on a 20MOA one piece scope base The barrel is 24" heavy with a 1:10 twist. https://www.gunsamerica.com/973269244/SAVAGE-MDL-10FP-CHOATE-STOCK-KONUSPRO-M-30-6-5-25-X-44-OPTIC.htm
>> No. 101907 ID: a90ce2
File 14797758035.jpg - (1.19MB , 2592x1944 , antique US Savage Model 10FP _308 Choate stock Kon.jpg )
>> No. 101908 ID: a90ce2
File 147977582821.jpg - (1.12MB , 2592x1944 , antique US Savage Model 10FP _308 Choate stock Kon.jpg )
>> No. 101909 ID: a90ce2
File 14797758862.jpg - (617.21KB , 2592x1944 , antique US Savage Model 10FP _308 Choate stock Kon.jpg )
This is an image board, Jackalope.
>> No. 101912 ID: cca8bf
File 147984539963.jpg - (0.99MB , 4250x2390 , SUCJGCK.jpg )
I forgot to grab a picture but it was a Savage 10FP without the detachable mag and crowned barrel similar to the second one you posted.

Anyways, I couldn't keep it in my pants and bought a 10 FCP-SR, 24" for $557 shipped. Merry Christmas to me. I'll be putting that Primary Arms and Vortex rings on it. I'll see how the sight picture looks but I'm pretty sure I'll make a leather cheek pad for it.

(stole this guy's pic of his rifle: https://www.reddit.com/user/icantcontrolmyself)
>> No. 101913 ID: b583cd
File 147984840348.jpg - (81.95KB , 2500x555 , antique US Savage Model 12 stainless single shot _.jpg )
Seems pretty nice.
- US Savage Model 12 stainless single shot .270 Winchester Short Magnum.
>> No. 101914 ID: fb893e
He and another friend of mine have them. They're shockingly well thought out for the price. If OP can swing the $1100+ price tag, they're the way to go.

I'd also look at Tikkas. They're smooth, refined, extremely accurate, and have excellent triggers for $750-$850. Here's a .223 T3x Varmint that's a great gun out of the box:

I'd also look at Athlon scopes, or even some of the tactical SFP Vortex scopes (HS-T I think?), along with SWFA fixed powers. Athlon and Vortex have all the tactical features you want in a budget variable scope, and SWFA makes well thought out, tough, and generally nice glass. I've heard great things about the PA 4-14x, but it's still a $300 scope. SWFA in particular usually has killer sales on Black Friday. Their fixed 10x is probably the best bang-for the buck on the market.
>> No. 101917 ID: 9ce3e0
I second the Tikkas.

It's going to be the bolt gun I end up getting.
>> No. 101918 ID: b583cd
File 147989171265.jpg - (1.66MB , 1900x1200 , antique Finnish Tikka T3 Sporter 1.jpg )
Tikkas ain't cheap.
>> No. 101919 ID: b583cd
File 147989187182.jpg - (701.56KB , 2048x1536 , antique Finnish Tikka T3 Lite SS _284 Win custom 1.jpg )
Caliber……………………….284 WIN
Action…………………………Tikka T3 Stainless, squared and faced
Lug…………………………….Custom Lug designed and hand finished by me.
Barrel…………………………Kreiger #6 Bull Sporter, Fluted and finished at 24"
Muzzle Brake……………..Mini Magnum Muscle Brake, slabbed
Stock…………………………McMillan A3 w/ Adjustable Cheekpiece
Scope………………………..NightForce NXS 5.5-22X50
Bullet………………………….Berger 168 Hunting VLD
Powder………………………H 4831SC
Brass…………………………Factory Winchester
Primer……………………….Federal 210M
>> No. 101920 ID: b583cd
File 147989193414.jpg - (713.09KB , 2048x1536 , antique Finnish Tikka T3 Lite SS _284 Win custom 2.jpg )
This month's rifle, dubbed "The Beast," began it's life as a T3 Lite SS, 30-06 which Al bought used as a donor rifle for this .284 WIN project.
Encouraged by the success of his first .284 WIN project, Al decided to build this rifle for long range hunting. For this shooter, he was looking for a rifle with a little larger barrel contour that would weigh about the same as the last one which would accomplish a little steadier shooting platform at longer ranges. In order to accomplish this, and after talking to one of the tech's at Kreiger, he ordered the barrel one contour heavier and had them flute it with 6 flutes. He then decided to finish it at 24" instead of 26" and cut the barrel shank an inch (1") shorter, making it a bit handier to carry around. Al also installed his custom designed recoil lug to the barreled action.
>> No. 101921 ID: b583cd
File 147989201071.jpg - (4.57MB , 3264x2448 , antique Finnish Tikka T3 Lite SS _284 Win hog hunt.jpg )
>> No. 101922 ID: b583cd
File 147989206825.jpg - (3.84MB , 3264x2448 , antique Finnish Tikka T3 Lite SS _284 Win hog hunt.jpg )
>> No. 101923 ID: b583cd
File 147989213482.jpg - (3.64MB , 3264x2448 , antique Finnish Tikka T3 Lite SS _284 Win deer hun.jpg )
>> No. 101943 ID: d094dd
File 148040925673.jpg - (213.46KB , 1914x1718 , QD-Rings-200L-222L.jpg )
For rings, I shelled out for steel QD. I got a set of Warne Maxima rings and haven't had any trouble with them. If Burris made QD rings with those Signature inserts, I'd grab those in a heartbeat.

QD lets you use the same optic for all the rifles, which makes justifying an expensive scope easier :DDD. Steel is mostly for peace of mind. The theory is that when the mount heats up from firing, aluminum rings will heat up at the same rate but expand at a different rate due to differing coefficient of thermal expansion. It won't make for a significant POI shift at 600 yards, but it's nice to not worry about scope mount shifting if I ever burn through a hundred rounds at 1200 yards. The square recoil key is also nice.
>> No. 101944 ID: cca8bf
That's an interesting point about steel rings and heat. I'll pick up the set that you suggested.

Now just to watch UPS tracking until it shows up Thursday...
>> No. 101945 ID: 454a4b

How much are you shooting for that to be a concern?

Because when doing 50 rounds of .308Win through my AI at a brisk pace, the receiver is barely above room temperature. There's only little heat transfer between the receiver & the barrel, let alone the receiver to the rail to the rings. My unimount is 7075T6 Aluminium.

I suspect you'd gain more from using an alu unimount, than from using steel separate rings.
>> No. 101946 ID: cca8bf
Is the benefit of a unimount a general rigidity or is there something else I'm missing?
>> No. 101948 ID: 454a4b

Rigidity (reduced flexing).
Unimounts can have built in tilt/cant, rather than needing to put said cant in the rail system.
Most unimounts also allow for easy scope leveling by inserting a leveling tool in the base.
>> No. 102007 ID: 3f7131
File 14806930787.jpg - (1.95MB , 2587x2000 , 1.jpg )
Picked it up from the FFL yesterday and I have to say, so far I'm pretty happy with my choice. ~$615 after shipping and transfer fees.

Any opinion on this Armalite unimount?
>> No. 102008 ID: 59aef1
  Seems relevant.
>> No. 102009 ID: 454a4b
>Any opinion on this Armalite unimount?

Doesn't really hurt to start off with good rings like badger ordnance or something. It's a tad more flexible if you haven't decided on what you want to do.


There's a lot better precision channels than MAC though.
>> No. 102012 ID: 59aef1
File 148077734594.jpg - (141.05KB , 991x704 , 1995 chechnya.jpg )
>There's a lot better precision channels than MAC though.

True enough, but the information still seemed perfectly relevant at a glance.
>> No. 102038 ID: 224cd7
>How much are you shooting for that to be a concern?
Not nearly enough. Like I said, it's likely a mental thing. Besides, if I was worried about rigidity, I'd just use four or even six rings if I can fit them. It seems serious long distance competitors use multiple sets of rings more than one-piece mounts.

Fug, I just might buy another set now. Godverdammit all.
>> No. 102054 ID: bcb52e
Call me crazy, but i've never actually seen anyone use more than one set of rings on a scope... Why would you even bother when one quality set will do just fine. If you're really worried about the scope being knocked loose then use some resin on the inside of your rings to add stickiness. I've never had any issues with my scope being knocked out of alignment and i've driven it pretty hard into barricades. I also routinely use it as a carry handle for my 17 lb rifle.
>> No. 102055 ID: bcb52e
As for rings. Look at Seekins precision rings. They're usually machined from the same block of aluminum so you won't have to bother lapping anything and they're not terribly expensive. Vortex also re-brands one of their ring sets as the "Vortex Precision Matched" rings.

I still swear by Spuhr though. Always will.
>> No. 102581 ID: 3f7131
File 148572161181.jpg - (2.53MB , 3948x2961 , IMG_20170129_141914.jpg )
Not to necro my own thread but I finally got the rifle put together and zero'd for 100 yards with XM80C. Final build is the Savage 110 FCP, PA 4-14 FFP 44mm scope on an Armalite unibody mount. Bipod is a no-name Chinese one I stole off my .22 (for now) and I picked up an American Mountain Supply squeeze bag which is great. Total cost is still <$1000.
>> No. 102582 ID: 3f7131
File 148572175361.jpg - (2.16MB , 3904x2928 , IMG_20170129_142023.jpg )
Picture doesn't demonstrate it but the PA scope is very clear and plenty bright for my needs. I have no real experience with nicer scopes so my opinion here is pretty useless, but I like it so far.

I'm shooting about 1.5 MOA at 100 yards if I'm doing my job. I'm positive the rifle can do better, so now it's on me.

Anyways, thanks for the advice guys.
>> No. 102584 ID: 9dcda2
File 148573236124.jpg - (50.49KB , 500x500 , hornady-80926-308-winchester-by-hornady-155-gr-bth.jpg )
Sweet. Now time to figure out what kind of ammo the gun likes. My RPR really likes the 155gr Hornaday Steel Match. The Prvi Partizan Ammo match and PMC X-Tac were meh. Federal GMM 168 works as expected.
>> No. 104079 ID: 19518e
File 14963639116.jpg - (801.29KB , 2162x929 , 300setup.jpg )
Not to necrojack this, but I'd like to discuss something I've only really seen mentioned a few times in stuff like 6mmBR articles, related to >>101888 >>101887.

How do you guys set up rifle balance? I didn't want to make the Savage build any heavier for the longest time, but the rear end is a little too nervous so I put a bit of lead in the stock, now the balance is about an inch and three quarters ahead of the front of the action. Not sure when I'll get to shoot it again, but it feels a lot better now. I used to think "rifle is heavy enough no need to make it heavier", but it seems that it isn't so simple.

Furthermore, it also slings normally. Before it was hard to carry in any way because of the awkward weight distribution, muzzle up it would fight to point down, and muzzle down it's too likely that it'll eat dirt or smack a rock or something due to the length when navigating steep terrain; picture related was not a walk in the park, nobody wants to muzzle rock quarry ground going up jagged ditches. Weird as it is to admit, as it sits now with bipod, scope and something like 5lbs of lead in the stock, it's nicer to carry. Total weight with all the trimmings clocks in at a hair under 20lbs.

tl;dr discuss rifle balance/weight distribution for long distance rifle'ing, what is the balance point on your precision guns?
>> No. 104080 ID: 19518e
File 149636592631.jpg - (602.38KB , 2048x1536 , IMG00259-20130515-1938.jpg )
>inch and three quarters
Derp, just three quarters. Basically right where the barrel nut is.

In any case I can't wait to shoot it now, even if the price of factory has gone up from 42$/20 to 64(to easily 85 depending of flavor)/20 since last I bought some. I got handloads to cook up, but I always try to have at least one common factory load zero written down and chronographed in case I run out of some component and have trouble finding it. Pic pretty related, it was a while ago but I was invited to a thousand yard shoot a bit last minute and had no handloads. The Hornady match 195gr BTHPs performed very well.

But NOFUCKINGBODY has them up here. Every store has Hornady 180gr Superformance usually around 60ish/20, so I might just go with that for my next outing and chrony it/write down zero offset compared to handloads since it does shoot well and it is incredibly common. Fuck it ain't cheap but I can take a small inkling of comfort that I didn't go with something like .338 Lap.
>> No. 104940 ID: 19518e
File 150016149231.jpg - (966.08KB , 2656x2128 , 200_yards.jpg )
This went fairly well.
>> No. 104955 ID: 3f7131
That's some fine shooting. I'm still working on my Savage getting 1.5" MOA with XM80. I'm sure 80% is me needing to put in more trigger time and 20% try better ammo.
>> No. 104957 ID: 19518e
File 150041298441.jpg - (15.92KB , 268x268 , Oooohh.jpg )
I'm rather pleased with the ammo. I think the rifle can do a bit better if I could time between heartbeats better, but regardless that factory ammo is basically my go-to in case I can't handload for whatever reason.

I still need much practice, as fair weather, prone with rear sandbag, bipod, and a bubble level on a 20lbs gun with a 1 pound trigger isnt exactly a "challenging shooting situation".

Also, damn superformance, mfw 4400ft-lbs at the muzzle...
>> No. 105062 ID: bf333d
File 150203983155.jpg - (443.90KB , 1193x1689 , ai_at308_147gr_sellier_and_bellot_training_bc_0_36.jpg )
This doesn't really belong in a long range thread, but I went shooting today, so might as well post some results.

Shot my AI AT with S&B 147gr "Training" FMJs (BC of 0.36) from standing position leaning on a wooden bench, with bipod and rear squeeze bag. Bench is one piece for all stalls, so someone bumps it, or puts down something on it & it's felt by all.
After the first group, a guy with an SVT40 came shoot next to me, and since this is an indoor range that's not the ideal situation.
But enough excuses, this is indoor, so wind is not a factor. That alone should make up for all disadvantages.

Group sizes in MOA (regardless of PoA), for ease of calculation assuming it's 50 yards instead of 50m (actual values would be slightly lower):

Groups listed in reverse order, I shot bottom right to top. Ironically, my "cold bore" group is by far the best when only looking at group size.
Obviously, the beefy AI AT barrel does not string much (if at all) from shooting a string of 45 bullets at a standard pace.
I was able to call most of the flyers, so this is all entirely my fault, not the ammo's or the rifle's.

Further info included:
Group size estimate in blue in mm.
The yellow figures are horizontal+vertical distances between the group's Point of Aim and the average Point of Impact (in mm). If you want to score in competition, this would ideally be 0:0.
Tool used is http://taran.ptosis.ch/taran.html
>> No. 105063 ID: bf333d
File 150204027995.png - (339.64KB , 1338x1029 , Analysis.png )
But obviously, 3 shot groups isn't the best way to analyze your shooting.

Pic related is real analysis. The pic is a bit meaningless since the app is not really written for 50m shooting. But the calculations are useful.

SD is standard deviation.
R50 tells you how tightly 50% of all shots grouped. (not very useful to me, but the military seems to care about that)
D5x is the average extreme spread if I were shooting 5 shot groups.
D10x is the average extreme spread if I were shooting 10 shot groups.
R95 & 99 are radii containing 95% and 99% of the shots.
>> No. 105064 ID: bf333d
File 150204120317.jpg - (275.72KB , 675x1200 , AI_AT308.jpg )
All in all, about an average range day. I've had better, I've had worse.

Since I'm really just getting my feet wet in the precision business and have a lot to learn, what could I do to further improve my results? (Aside from starting to reload and obviously shooting longer range)

I guess I could learn how to properly shoot prone? That's something I have no real experience with.
Anything else you guys can think of?
>> No. 105065 ID: 19518e
Pretty good shooting, and consistent cheekweld because shooting that close will really magnify parallax. I have a bit of a hard time with my groups under 200 yards because of that. Big scopes tend to just not like close range stuff, or so I tell myself.

>guy with an SVT-40
Reminds me of that time I was shooting my 300 Win Mag in a crowded range. The guy to my immediate left was using a 26" barrel 300 Win Mag with a brake, and the guy to my immediate right had a 338 Lapua with a 22" barrel and a big gill brake. I never though I would think of 300 Win Mag with a brake as "damn quiet" when the 338 would chuck my full boxes of ammo off my bench and take my hat off every round.

>shooting prone
This guy isn't bad, if you doubt his tips go have a look at how he shoots normally pushing a 223 Rem out past a mile and shit like that. I do flat my feet out because it's more comfortable for me.
>> No. 105066 ID: bf333d
>and consistent cheekweld because shooting that close will really magnify parallax.

I do take care to have correct eye relief and have my eye properly centered, but consistent cheek weld is actually one of the thing I probably should work on. I probably should put in some risers to experiment on what works best. Since I'm not currently shooting under stress or time constraints, it's not been an issue yet.

>guy with an SVT-40

Heh, almost forgot to mention the aroma. :P
Surplus 7.62x54R at an indoor range, you can practically taste it in the air.


His shit seems to make sense. Much of what he says is opposite of my standing bench experiences though. So only actual experimentation will reveal if it's correct.

I'm a bit of a contrarian though. I tend to shoot with breathe held in, whereas common wisdom says to hold exhaled. Though that matters more for prone than it does for a bench.
>> No. 105086 ID: 19518e
>I tend to shoot with breathe held in, whereas common wisdom says to hold exhaled.
You bring up an interesting point. Are there physiological explanations for why respiratory pause is commonly chosen as being the stillest moment?

The advantages of holding your breath should be that you can keep still longer than at respiratory pause after exhalation. When your lungs are empty, from what I know, you only really get up to 10 seconds, give or take, before you start struggling for breath. Holding a breath however, that can be done for a longer period.

So what's the deal?
>> No. 105094 ID: bf333d

The vid above your post kind of tries to explain some of it.

When you inhale, you're actually never 100% full. Doing so would take a lot of effort. So the question is, do you always inhale 75%? 80%? In long range prone position, that small difference might make your chest puff up a tiny bit more. Enough for your position not to be repeatable.

However when you exhale, you can fairly easily exhale entirely and you'll always be as flat as you were before.

My shooting skill however is not at a level where this kind of difference would matter much.
>> No. 105096 ID: 19518e
Derp. That makes a bit of sense, and it makes me realize how holding your breath in some situations would be worth practicing or using by choice over exhaled respiratory pause.

>> No. 105097 ID: 13f512
As far as breathing, what I always tell students is to pause with some air still in their lungs - don't exhale 100%.

It is indeed harder to be consistent, but it's easier to not run out of breath and have to reset. exhaling completely, you do still have plenty of oxygen in your blood for a while, but your body is dumb and will start up the whole OMG I'm asphyxiating! reaction long before it's really necessary.

Training that reaction out is a bit more advanced, so for most of us who are not elite tier supersnipers... exhale 80% or so and take the shot.
>> No. 105098 ID: 19518e
>exhaling completely, you do still have plenty of oxygen in your blood for a while, but your body is dumb and will start up the whole OMG I'm asphyxiating! reaction long before it's really necessary.
I've tried a few times to squeeze out a good shot on empty lungs even when starting to have a hard time ignoring the "straining" and "tremors" for air, but now I'm wondering if freediving training could be useful in shooting. I always try to empty in a consistent way, at the "comfortably empty" and not the "I'm trying to empty the shit out of myself by squeezing down like I'm trying to invert my lungs" and from what I can tell it's been consistent.

Regardless I feel like my shooting could best improve just by having better cardio for a slower resting heartbeat. I'm pretty bad at cardio.
>> No. 105117 ID: bf333d
One of the problems I've encountered with trying to exhale completely is that my eye sight tends to become affected more easily. At the start of a range session, it's not really obvious, but after putting 25 accurate rounds down range, my vision goes blurry a lot quicker when exhaled than it is when I shoot inhaled. Strain on the eyes seem to be compounded by exhaling completely, even if oxygen in your blood should not be dropping that badly.
>> No. 105172 ID: 19518e
File pew_bullet_traces.webm - (4.37MB )
Had a good time bullying a gong. We had a pretty big problem because we lacked cotter pins to stop the target stand from disassembling itself as the webm demonstrates, we also had to go out and pile rocks more than once to hold the stand down. I tell ya a long barrel 300 Win Mag carried horsepower like it's going out of style, I didn't think it would chuck a 5.5 pound plate around so much.

Gong is 8" diameter 3/8ths AR550, distance was all 550 yards, decent bullet trace despite the rudimentary camera and spotting scope.
>> No. 105175 ID: bf333d
File 150269669027.jpg - (36.87KB , 297x332 , 1310924588584.jpg )

Jezus, that poor plate. :(

Makes me super jelly that you guys can just shoot outdoor in the middle of nowhere though.
>> No. 105176 ID: 6ca38e
how'd the 3/8ths hold up to 300 winmag? I know you've got 550 instead of 500, but I still would have thought half inch would be the go to here.
>> No. 105177 ID: 19518e
The plate claims to be safe for 338 Lap at 200 yards. I put a couple rounds in it at 300 yards with my 300 Win earlier and there was no real damage. It's pretty tough, a lead bullet wrapped in copper can only really do harm to a plate like that if it exceeds shear modulus and that would need quite a lot of oomph. At that distance, it knocked the plate around but no perceptible damage was done other than paint, not counting the scratches from the plate taking a tumble down like a five yard rock crevasse.

Surprise spelunking ensued.

Not sure where you are in Europe and how it would work out legally, but is it possible for you to drive to somewhere that you could shoot out innawoods? Possibly in another country? Might be a bit of a drive, but it could be worth it over a weekend.
>> No. 105178 ID: bf333d
>Not sure where you are in Europe and how it would work out legally, but is it possible for you to drive to somewhere that you could shoot out innawoods?


Even if such a magical country would exist inna Eurolandia, the euro gunlaws state that I need a formal invite from a gun club to come shooting at their facility to be able to travel with my guns to said country.
>> No. 105179 ID: 9dcda2
That is sweet!
>> No. 105183 ID: 19518e
For some reason I imagined a possibility of driving to bumfuck nowhere in Russia for a weekend with a few rifles, but I assume this is no-go for multiple reasons.

I am not advocating any infractions in any country of any kind, pls interpol do not shoot Godverdomme's dog.
>> No. 105205 ID: 5af259
Here's how I do my breath training: Push ups, sit ups or squats. Exhale completely and do 1 push up while holding the exhale. Reset and exhale and hold the exhale, do 2 push ups. Pyramid like this until youve worked up to 5 or 7 push ups while holding your exhale. Now pyramid your way back down to 1 push up. Now do it with your sit ups and squats next...Enjoy!
>> No. 105209 ID: 13f512

Matching breath and movement is good practice in general
>> No. 105212 ID: 701886
>plz no shoot Gooberdomme doge

Eh, its Belgium. I'd assume they would just feed it chocolate.
>> No. 105280 ID: bf333d
File 150315942365.png - (1.83MB , 1579x1094 , ai_at308_147gr_50y.png )
Went shooting today again. Same conditions as posted above:
>Shot my AI AT with S&B 147gr "Training" FMJs (BC of 0.36) from standing position leaning on a wooden bench, with bipod and rear squeeze bag. Bench is one piece for all stalls, so someone bumps it, or puts down something on it & it's felt by all.
Except I now shot from the stall adjacent to the wall, which meant the table was slightly more stable due to being partially affixed to the wall. Tremors could still be felt but were less pronounced.

Since 3 shot groups are not really relevant at showing what a rifle is consistently capable of, I decided to shoot 5 shot groups and to try to get my zero correct instead of focusing on group size.
I did not opt for 10 shot groups because you'd be shooting too many hole in holes due to the very short distance and it would become too hard to show where the shots went.

This target does not show the cold bore group (which was truly tiny, but off zero), nor does it show later groups in which I tried out multiple shooting techniques to try and figure out what worked best. As a result, these are cherry picked results, although I did shoot the 4 groups posted in succession, with a break for reloading after each individual group.

5 shot groups (bottom left counterclockwise to top left):
6mm .47MOA
6mm .47MOA
7mm .55MOA
4mm .31MOA

Needless to say, I was impressed. As were the people spectating. This is akin to reliably shooting a match head off. Makes me wonder what the rifle could do from prone and with proper reloads... (though it's often argued by real long range shooters that anything under 1 MOA is gravy and not all that relevant when compared to the other factors you'll contend with at longer distances outdoor)

One thing I'm being more & more aware of is rifle cant. While at this range it's not extremely relevant, I've been finding that due to the fact my bipod is specifically designed to allow cant (which is a big plus for shooting in less than optimal positions, but might be a detriment for bench shooting). I've got a bubble level in the scope base, but that's not really precise enough and not easily checked without having to change your form. I can't line up based on the target, since the moving target hangers are never truly level.
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but a piece of cord with a weight might allow me to always have the reticule (and thus rifle) perfectly level?
>> No. 105281 ID: bf333d
File 150315962358.png - (320.73KB , 1373x1028 , Analysis2.png )
Disclaimer: The results posted are statistically fucking irrelevant, but only serve to show what the rifle is capable of at short range when the loose nut behind the trigger is up to par. (statistical relevance is abysmal)
>> No. 105289 ID: c01760
Just out of curiosity, at what distance do you generally shoot your pistols?
>> No. 105294 ID: bf333d
File 150322227377.jpg - (1.00MB , 2048x1536 , photo.jpg )
>Just out of curiosity, at what distance do you generally shoot your pistols?

Using an A4/letter format target:
For relatively fast paced fire, generally around 15m.

Using the normal pistol competition target:
Pretty much exclusively 25m, slow fire.

Pic is a 25m pistol target with 100 rounds through it from an X-Five AL SO shot two handed. But it's from better days when I was a pistol junkie. It's amazing how quickly your skills disappear when you stop regularly practicing. My recent focus on rifles has really thrown a wrench in the works when it comes to my pistol skills. I doubt I'd be able to do this kind of shooting now except if I had a REALLY good day.
>> No. 105297 ID: f2172d
File 150324580468.jpg - (273.55KB , 2656x1494 , 20170806_132344.jpg )
Impressive at 25m, nonetheless.

I did this with my new S&W 41 at 15 yards. I still have quite a ways to go.
>> No. 105326 ID: bf333d
File 150376393489.jpg - (284.82KB , 1920x382 , 28135_1920_1200.jpg )
Idle hands are the tool of the devil...

Range is close this week & next.
My shotgun is still not delivered.

And so the mind drifts...
I want a trainer precision rifle for 50m-100m distances to complement my AI AT. Now, if I had lived in the US, I'd probably have ordered something crazy like a lefty Stiller 2500XR action, Lilja/Krieger barrel and a JAE700 chassis. Just because. That'd have cost me as much as my fucking AI AT.

Good thing (and sadly) these things are not readily on order inna Eurolandia.

So I tried to figure out what was the best way to build something worthwhile.

I actually started off with the idea of a lefty Sako Quad, because Manners makes stocks for that. But I was on the fence due to the accuracy being just shy of what I expected which is probably in part due to the quick change barrel system. But, fear not, Sako also makes the FinnFire II which is the same action without the quick change barrel system. Except both have just been discontinued in left handed variants & none are currently in the dealer network for me to snap up.

So, back to the drawing board. After lots of looking around, I found the Anschutz 64L MPR. Basically a match rifle repeater. But again, the L version has been discontinued.
So then there is the 1416L, which is slightly inferior to the MPR, but still better than what a Quad would have been. That is available, and should fit my accuracy criteria. Sadly, no drop in stocks are available for the lefty. So that would require a custom inlet in a tactical stock. So I'm looking into that.

Bonus of the 1416L is that it's available in 23", 18" & even shorter. So lots of options there, I'm not a fan of overly long rifles. Since it'll be scoped, there's no real need for the longer length (which mostly benefits the sight radius and not the bullet's velocity).
>> No. 105327 ID: bf333d
File 150376408584.jpg - (186.82KB , 1100x733 , img-6413_orig.jpg )
>Range is close this week & next.

Or rather, closed.

Anyhow. Anschutz North America has partnered with Manners in the past to make tactical rimfire trainers with the 1416, but it's right handed only stocks for now. I wonder if I can convince Manners to make a mirror image.

>> No. 105538 ID: f11f4d
  Huh, didn't realize this was a thing.
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