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File 148948528145.jpg - (74.40KB , 1600x391 , A-Four-Bore-Rifle-or-Four-jamesdjulia_com-6.jpg )
103062 No. 103062 ID: ecc980
Did these kind of firearms go straight from being muzzleloading caplock guns to using brass cartridges?

I can't find any info or even videos on breechloading elephant guns that used self-contained paper cartridges. I dont think I can find any pics or stats on weight, price for the era, muzzle velocity, etc.
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>> No. 103063 ID: 4b3b00
>>103062
I'm gonna say yes. Look at the Snider-Enfield: A muzzleloader that was converted to use unitized paper cartridges.

Don'tcha think the kind of person who went on elephant hunts would want the best technology available?
>> No. 103064 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949590053.jpg - (34.58KB , 853x398 , antique needle fire rifle Prussian Dreyse model cu.jpg )
103064
You mean sealed paper or linen cartridges like those in 1860-era needlefire guns? Needlefire guns were early bolt-action rifles that had long firing pins that would pierce through the rear of the paper cartridge and hit the percussion cap behind the bullet that ignited the black powder and paper cartridge. But these were soon replaced by metallic cartridge rifles.
- Prussian Dreyse model needle fire rifle cutaway.
- Cartridges for needlefire rifles: Prussian Dreyse and French Chsassepot cartridges. http://www.operatorchan.org/k/res/98705.html#98956
>> No. 103065 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949610735.jpg - (20.35KB , 281x705 , antique needle fire UK Eley cartridge cutaway.jpg )
103065
The Brits used paper cartridges that contained the powder, cap and bullet, but these too were quickly replaced by metallic cartridge ammo.
- UK Eley paper cartridge cutaway.
>> No. 103066 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949620081.jpg - (30.69KB , 969x293 , antique needle fire UK Eley cartridge paper-covere.jpg )
103066
The UK Eley cartridge used paper-covered brass foil.
>> No. 103067 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949631815.jpg - (193.96KB , 1280x960 , bullets, UK Snider _577 Canadian produced paper wr.jpg )
103067
UK Snider .577 cartridge: a Canadian produced paper wrapped brass case.
>> No. 103068 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949651632.jpg - (167.94KB , 967x757 , bullets, UK _577 Snider, _577-450 Martini-Henry &a.jpg )
103068
The Brits also moved to thin brass foil cartridges, but these were too delicate and easily deformed, so they replaced them with thicker brass cartriges.
- UK .577 Snider, .577-450 Martini-Henry brass foil & .303 Mk VII cartridges.
>> No. 103069 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949713089.jpg - (268.28KB , 1000x665 , bullets, shotgun 12 gauge Eley Kynoch war time pap.jpg )
103069
But if you mean 4 gauge paper shotgun cartridges, you may have to look extensively because the big 4-bores typically used brass cartridges.

Here's an old thread on elephant guns:
http://www.operatorchan.org/k/res/96505.html

- Eley Kynoch War Time Issue smokeless cartridge box, 4 Eley Kynoch paper cased 12 bore cartridges No. 4 and 21 Eley Kynoch paper cased cartridges for T. Stensby & Co., Manchester, No. 4.
>> No. 103070 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949749590.jpg - (462.60KB , 1600x768 , bullets, 4 bore Holland Nitro rifle cartridges by .jpg )
103070
FULL BOX OF 10 HOLLAND 4 BORE NITRO RIFLE CARTRIDGES BY KYNOCH.
SN NSN. Cal. 4 Bore. Two piece box with yellow label is printed “HOLLAND” “4-Bore” “NITRO RIFLE” “CARTRIDGES” “70 Grains Cordite” and “Solid Lead” “Manufactured at the KYNOCH FACTORIES” “NOBEL INDUSTRIES LTD.” Box contains 10 brass cartridges with lead projectiles, with “Kynoch” “Nobel” and “4” bore head stamps. .978 Diameter projectiles. 4-1/4″ Cases. Each cartridge is numbered with type-written tape labels on box from 971 to 980. PROVENANCE: Letter regarding purchase of these cartridges in 1984, and stating that they were made for “hammerless nitro ejector H&H Royal which resides in the Maharajah of Rewa’s Museum.” http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2350-391/
>> No. 103071 ID: f8f8e5
File 148949822452.jpg - (158.02KB , 1055x690 , bullets, 4 bore engine starters cutaway 1.jpg )
103071
I remember hearing of someone who acquired 4-bore paper cartridges, but they were engine starters.
In the film "Flight Of The Phoenix" (1965 version with James Stewart & Hardy Krüger) the operation of a Coffman starter is shown at length, because part of the suspense comes from having a very limited number of cartridges available, and the engine refuses to start. https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/4-bore-engine-starter-cartridge/15118
>> No. 103072 ID: f8f8e5
  Flight of the Phoenix -- starting the engine https://youtu.be/IACjOvyx5hs
>> No. 103073 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950111774.jpg - (280.52KB , 927x1200 , bullets, 4 bore Kynoch & Eley 4 inch black pow.jpg )
103073
Two 4 Bore 4″ Rifle Cartridges, 1 Kynoch and 1 Eley. The projectile is most likely 1800 grains with a 14 Dram Black Powder Charge. Alongside is a .22 Hornet for comparison. https://www.theexplora.com/kynoch-and-eley-4-bore-4-inch-black-powder-rifle-cartridges/
>> No. 103074 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950117235.jpg - (250.78KB , 927x1200 , bullets, 4 bore Kynoch & Eley 4 inch black pow.jpg )
103074
This may seem like a rather dull post to anyone but the ammunition collectors! But if you were actually to go out and try to find to buy these cartridges, you would find it extremely difficult! They are indeed very rare. For me the interest is the sheer scale of the ammunition and the rifles that the first explorers had to carry around for their defense, during the days before the advent of cordite powder.

I think what prompted the post was the fact that in the last James Julia auction, a box of 10 Holland & Holland 4 Bore Nitro Rifle Cartridges estimated to sell at $3-5,000 realized $27,700.00! Naturally I cleared out the cupboard to see if I had any!
>> No. 103075 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950200326.jpg - (537.60KB , 1600x1200 , antique UK Thomas Blande 4-bore w 44-inch Damascus.jpg )
103075
Beware when shooting ca 1900 shotguns!
Back then, Damascus barrels were occasionally used and these proved dangerous to the shooter and occasionally exploded, especially when higher pressure smokeless powder cartridges were loaded. These Damascus barrels had wood grain-like patterns on the steel from thin sheets of steel (and even chains) hammer-forged over a bore rod. It's like comparing a solid block of wood to one made from particle board.

Thomas Bland, extremely rare 4-bore single barrel rifle with extra shotgun barrel, ca. 1900. Weight 16 1/2 lbs. 14 1/2" LOP. Superb 27" steel rifle barrel with integral forged full length top rib and absolutely mint bore. Single fixed rear sight for 50yds. with two folding leaves for 100 and 150yds. Barrel engraved "charge 14 drams, conical ball". Rare top lever opening action with rebounding hammer, bar action, sidelock all retaining much of the original color hardening. Comes with an extra 44" Damascus 4-bore shotgun barrel supplied with its own oak case. Unlike most 4-bore rifles which actually have bore diameters in the 6-bore range this magnificent gun is a true 4-bore (and so marked) with a bore diameter of 1.052". Comes complete with a number of custom made brass cartridge cases, conical bullet mould, and sizing dies. Cased in a custom case and ready for Africa. Doubtful you will ever see a finer 4-bore single rifle/shotgun combination for sale at any price. http://www.drake.net/products/Bland-London--Rare-4-Bore-Rifle-ca.-1900?id=28557

- UK 4 Bore fowler percussion shotgun by Westley Richards with a 38-inch Damascus barrel. http://www.operatorchan.org/k/res/100826.html#101559
>> No. 103076 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950218994.jpg - (519.92KB , 1600x1200 , antique UK Thomas Blande 4-bore single barrel rifl.jpg )
103076
Some double barrel 4-bore rifles weighed 26 pounds. But the safari hunters would typically employ strong African or Indian gun-bearers to lug them around. And others to bring the gin and camp stools.
>> No. 103077 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950230397.jpg - (432.04KB , 1600x1200 , antique UK Thomas Blande 4-bore 'charge 14 dr.jpg )
103077
UK Thomas Blande 4-bore rifle engraved with the instruction 'charge 14 drams, conical ball'.
>> No. 103078 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950316643.jpg - (179.83KB , 1593x530 , antique shotgun flintlock blunderbuss 4 bore Rayl .jpg )
103078
I almost bought a 4 gauge... blunderbuss. It was a kit gun with a steel barrel that was octagonal at the 1 1/2" wide breech, necking down and flaring out to a 2" wide round trumpet at the muzzle. It cost a thousand dollars about ten years ago, but now they cost $1600 to $2000 finished.
>> No. 103079 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950344375.jpg - (407.90KB , 1596x717 , antique shotgun flintlock blunderbuss 4 bore Rayl .jpg )
103079
I have also seen 4-bore rifled muzzle-loaders that gunsmiths made. Seeing the outrageous price for 4-bore brass cartridges, this can be an economic choice if you can get 4-bore bullet molds. A 4 gauge roundball weighs a quarter-pound. I have seen conical 4-bore bullets that weighed more than half a pound.
>> No. 103080 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950658596.jpg - (68.57KB , 750x1050 , antique flintlock grenade launcher hand mortar _75.jpg )
103080
Instead of the 4 gauge blunderbuss (I already have a 10 gauge blunderbuss), I bought a flintlock grenade launcher, aka hand mortar, with a .75 chamber and a 2.5-inch (63.5mm) bore. For launching tennis balls and pipe bombs.
>> No. 103081 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950660728.jpg - (345.07KB , 750x1050 , antique flintlock grenade launcher hand mortar _75.jpg )
103081
>> No. 103082 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950664883.jpg - (279.76KB , 750x1050 , antique flintlock grenade launcher hand mortar _75.jpg )
103082
Still haven't shot the damn thing.
>> No. 103083 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950772370.jpg - (62.99KB , 2005x580 , antique percussion 8-bore elephant gun 1.jpg )
103083
Example of an 8-bore muzzle-loader.
>> No. 103084 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950777713.jpg - (63.11KB , 1800x547 , German WW2 Panzerbuchse Solothurn S18-1000 20x138m.jpg )
103084
And an even more modern big bore rifle.
>> No. 103085 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950784163.jpg - (429.61KB , 2400x697 , German WW2 Panzerbuchse Solothurn S18-1000 20x138m.jpg )
103085
Swiss Made Solothurn 20mm Cannon with a Rare Side Mounted Optical/Sniper Scope, Ammunition, Box Magazines and Cleaning Kit (Registered NFA Destructive Device)
Estimated Price: $11,000 - $18,000 https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/52/1718
>> No. 103086 ID: f8f8e5
File 148950787549.jpg - (52.38KB , 1800x545 , German WW2 Panzerbuchse Solothurn S18-1000 20x138m.jpg )
103086
The weapon itself is just massive being almost 7 feet long. The Rheinmetall company was the original developer of these weapons in the early to mid 1930s and used the Solothurn factory in Switzerland to bypass the terms of the Versailles Treaty and to actually produce many of these weapons during the German secret rearmament, with actual production in 1939-1942 time frame. A German version of this same weapon 20mm cannon design was used by the Germans during WWII and employed in both fighters and mounted on wheeled carriages. They were intended to be used as a light anti-tank gun, however as tank armor improved, their role shifted for use against light armored trucks and vehicles and fixed field guns. These weapons were a beautifully machined and manufactured weapon with all forged parts that were 100% machined and fitted to exacting tolerances. They have an all blued metal finish with the complete bolt assembly left in the white. This specific weapon is very unique in that it has a permanently mounted optical sighting device or sniper scope mounted on the left side of the receiver. The telescopic sight assembly has a fully machined housing assembly that is actually integral with the receiver, directly over the opening for the box magazine with the optics fitted inside. It has a massive fully machined sunshade and rear eye piece with the rubber eye cup on the back. The scope itself appears to be approximately 3X and it has a single European style single aiming post for a reticule that has windage graduations on each side of the post. The top of the scope is set up just like a sniper rifle in that the elevation knob is calibrated from 1-12 (100-1200) meters, obviously for the standard 20mm cannon ammunition. In addition to the optical scope it has the standard folding front sight directly over the chamber area of the gun with a standard military style tangent rear sight, graduated from 2-15 (200-1500) meters. This weapon has the following receiver markings: 'SWITZERLAND/S18-1000/1940/NC. 502", with the receiver flat directly on the rear of the chamber area has a small "Cross/M" proofmark. The weapon functions in a barrel recoiling/blow-back operated fashion with the large box magazines mounted on the left side of the receiver with the ejection port on the right side. To actually cock the cannon the operator has to turn a large crank on the right side of the receiver, to withdraw the bolt to the rear and then pull a lever on the left side to actually release the bolt, which in turn strips the first round from the box magazine and loads it in the chamber. After firing the barrel actually recoils backwards and rotates to unlock the barrel extension from the eight locking lugs on the front of the bolt and ejects the spent cartridge. This version is fitted with a bipod mounted on the lower font portion of the receiver with a single adjustable monopod on the very rear of the receiver. It is complete with four original large Swiss/Solothurn box magazines, a canvas, box magazine carrier with shoulder strap, a canvas bag that contains a four section cleaning rod and handle assembly, two asbestos gloves for holding on to the barrel when carrying or moving the cannon after firing, two spare recoil springs, an electronic firing cable assembly, a brass oiler can, and two small tin boxes the hold various small spare parts, cross and takedown pins and spring assemblies with approximately 20 rounds of live 20mm ammunition. Most of the ammunition is head stamped with "20/40 and 41" for the year of manufacture with one of the following lot or makers marks: E3, E7, E8 or E15. There is primarily two type of rounds most have a dark blue painted tip with the remaining a lighter blue painted tip. NOTE: This weapon is defined by the National Firearms Act as a Destructive Device. This is a fully transferable NFA Class III Firearm currently on a Form 3. You are required to check your state and/or local laws as to whether or not you may own this. This weapon can be transferred to a Class III dealer at no charge. Buyer pays all other transfer fees and stamps.
>> No. 103087 ID: 2001f3
File 14895211861.jpg - (55.70KB , 1400x300 , BQY14-G-F2-L.jpg )
103087
R.B Rodda 8-bore "paradox" gun, featuring a barrel suited for shot or slug use.
>> No. 103088 ID: 2001f3
File 148952205220.jpg - (18.87KB , 640x140 , IMG_0018.jpg )
103088
But sometimes, you just need a gun firing a cartridge equally suited to being used for inflicting blunt trauma: enter the Stoltzer & Sons 2-bore rifles. Available in single or double barrel, these fire a 3500-grain (!) cast lead bullet over 300 grains of Goex FFg, for a muzzle velocity in the vicinity of 1500fps. This is the single-barrel version, a Jones underlever action weighing 22 pounds, 3 ounces with all three 13oz mercury recoil reducers installed.
>> No. 103089 ID: 2001f3
File 14895225537.jpg - (20.83KB , 1024x178 , RSFull_zps47f48b17.jpg )
103089
>>103088
And this...this is the double, same manufacturer. Using again the Jones-patent underlever action, mated to a pair of 30" barrels (1:48" twist, 1.326" bore diameter), four 13oz mercury recoil reducers in the maple stock. Finished weight 44 pounds, though this one was built to the specifications of a particular customer. Stolzer believes with some modifications to the design (shorter, more tapered barrels being the main aspect), that could be reduced to about 32 pounds...which is still heavier than a Barrett M107, and about the same as the heavier M82A1.
>> No. 103090 ID: 628641
>>103089
If my math is correct... and I think it is... 3500gn x2 = 1 lb. of lead in two shots.
>> No. 103093 ID: 2001f3
File 148962287251.jpg - (81.63KB , 1500x322 , MFC4-L-F2-L.jpg )
103093
>>103090
That's precisely correct, because a 2-bore (or 2-gauge) by definition fires a half-pound lead ball. Gauge or bore refers to the number of lead balls of a diameter to fit the gun's bore can be cast out of a pound of lead. Eg. a 12-gauge round ball is 1/12th of a pound.
>> No. 103125 ID: c5b6f2
While looking for Stoplossed's lightweight AR thread, I came across another Bat Guano elephant gun thread.

Dagnabbit Bats.

>>96505
>> No. 103128 ID: 74c131
File 149001103574.jpg - (315.80KB , 1280x923 , antique US elephant gun Theodore Roosevelt next to.jpg )
103128
Yeah, an old elephant gun thread mentioned here:
>>103069
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