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Patches and Stickers for sale here

File 151577479490.jpg - (650.62KB , 1498x934 , img_4587.jpg )
106755 No. 106755 ID: e809d9
556 doggos were sacrificed to the murder /k/ube for this holy relic of a weapon.

26 U.S. Code § 5845

>The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger,

>The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
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>> No. 106757 ID: c3b8cf
Franklin armory's XOW has been around for a few years.
Binary triggers have been around for a few years.
Keep up with the times.

Aren't you supposed to be watching your wife's son right now, broseph?
>> No. 106760 ID: 181cef
How does this work?
>> No. 106761 ID: c3b8cf

Looks like they may be using a smoothbore barrel.
>> No. 106762 ID: 19518e
File 151579417730.gif - (0.97MB , 290x231 , 133462710380.gif )
I heard this as well. Smoothbore, but the muzzle device is rifled.
>> No. 106763 ID: e809d9
The thing is the XOW is legally an AOW; the reason this skirts the law is the same way the Mossberg shockwave does, it's all about exact wording; That is they found that a definition of a rifle hinges on it firing *once* per **pull** of the trigger; Therefore if you design a gun to fire *twice* per **pull** it no longer meets the definition of a Rifle,

Better yet because the ATF has defined a *pull* and *release* of a trigger to be two legally distinct and separate *functions* of the trigger under 26 U.S. Code § 5845, that means if you design a rifle with a trigger that only fires upon release of the trigger then it also no longer meets the definition of a rifle which is why I believe they are getting away with having a 3 position selector instead of just straight binary.

But who knows maybe the ATF ruled the fact it has a binary trigger straight from the factory that alone negates the definition of a rifle despite also being able to fire it semi-auto.
>> No. 106765 ID: e809d9
I believe the keypoint is the binary trigger since if it was based solely on being smoothbore it would meet the definition of a shotgun because much like 'armor piercing handgun ammunition' "fixed-shotgun shell" isn't defined by shit other than the whim of the ATF.
>> No. 106766 ID: 181cef
File 151580683975.jpg - (169.10KB , 1000x540 , fspbarreled upper (1 of 9).jpg )
Shit, if they finally come to market with an HK binary trigger, and I can figure out how to do this with on of the Omega MP5
barreled uppers that Atlantic is selling. It is so fucking on!
>> No. 106767 ID: f0fb5d
Neat. The YouTube videos showing accuracy testing at various ranges should be fun.

I've never even considered what an unstabilized 5.56 from a short barrel might do as far as grouping. I wonder how an unstabilized projectile would compare to something normal in terms of overpenetration and fragmentation. If it groups in a fist-size inside of 5 yards or can reliably hit a chest at 10, doesn't penetrate as many walls and yaws/fragments faster in soft tissue, it could be an intriguing option.
>> No. 106772 ID: 19518e
>I've never even considered what an unstabilized 5.56 from a short barrel might do as far as grouping.
Unless I'm mistaken, the muzzle device is rifled. I imagine the groups won't be stellar, but I don't believe the rounds will be completely unstabilized unless the user removed the muzzle device.

So it might depend on how much MSG the user wants when taking it out.
>> No. 106773 ID: f0fb5d
Even so, a minimally stabilized 5.56 projectile is intriguing. I do wonder whether it'd cause more reliable or faster yawing and fragmentation to an identical projectile form a rifled barrel.
>> No. 106776 ID: da39fa
>The thing is the XOW is legally an AOW
No, it's not. If it were legally an AOW it would require a tax stamp.
>> No. 106778 ID: 1519ac
File 151588071953.jpg - (187.70KB , 1920x1080 , maxresdefault.jpg )
Yes it is. The XOW is not the firearm this thread is about.

I'm in the camp that thinks this is based on the wording of pull vs function of the trigger. I'll be real surprised if it's a smoothbore. I wonder if the ATF will make them use a non-standard lower so it can't accept a normal trigger.
>> No. 106785 ID: e809d9
The XOW is an AOW that requires a Tax Stamp

The firearm you are thinking about is the XO-26 which has an vertical grip and ***arm brace*** to keep from being both an SBR and AOW.

The Reformation is a completely new firearm that has a short barrel AND a real stock by exploiting some legal wizardry.
>> No. 106787 ID: b00a13
I am also thinking its some kind of smoothbore with a rifled muzzle device

but consider the following:

11.5 inch rifled barrel
4.5 inch permanently attached telescoping muzzle device

If a buttsock can be folded/collasped but still count towards the OAL of the gun, why couldn't a flash hider?
>> No. 106788 ID: e809d9
File 151589711638.jpg - (88.47KB , 900x462 , china_qbs_09_shotgun_2-tfb.jpg )
The ATF ruled like 20 or 30 years ago a muzzle device has to be welded into place.

Regardless it's not the smoothbore that's key because that would just make it a shotgun since both shotguns and rifles have the same legal definition other than one shooting a "cartridge" or "shotgun shell", with that difference being moot since the ATF can just rule that a .223 through a smoothbore constitutes 'fixed shotgun shell' because there's no definition of what a shotgun shell is and you can't say "oh shotgun shells are plastic and cardboard" because originally shotgun shells had brass cases which are still in common use in China.

It all has to be the fact it has a binary trigger straight from the factory and semi-mode is based on a release trigger.
>> No. 106789 ID: b00a13
File 151589790237.jpg - (117.60KB , 1067x653 , 1415398661115.jpg )
But it is welded in place. Nothing says that it can't slide back and forth. This is still permanently attached

As for release triggers, they've been around for decades in serious trap shooting and they don't change the fact that a shotgun with a release trigger is still a shotgun.

>> No. 106790 ID: e809d9
>they don't change the fact that a shotgun with a release trigger is still a shotgun.

Why is a Mossberg 500 with 14" barrel and birdhead classified as a Short Barrel Shotgun by the ATF yet an Identical Mossberg Shockwave isn't?
>> No. 106791 ID: b00a13
Because one was a virgin receiver and one originally came from the factory with a stock
>> No. 106792 ID: e809d9
No the main difference is how the manufacturer recorded it when they built it because there's plenty of Mossberg 500s that came from the factory without stocks.

That said you are claiming the key to this shit skirting the NFA is the fact it's smoothbore but again that would make it a shotgun subject to an 18 inch barrel since under the GCA a shotgun and rifle has identical definitions with the only difference being one is rifled while the other is smoothbore.
>> No. 106793 ID: b00a13
>That said you are claiming the key to this shit skirting the NFA is the fact it's smoothbore

That's entirely not what I've been arguing. I've been talking about a 11.5" barrel with a permanently attached muzzle device that can extend and retract, that when extended brings the legal barrel length to 16", like existing 14.5" barrels with a 1.5" permanently attached flash hider.

My following argument was that it can't be related to release triggers because those have been a thing since before either you or I were born.

As for the mossbergs, the ones you are thinking of came from the factory with a 18" barrel and a non birdhead grip, sometimes in a package deal with a stock. Which put them in a different legal category as standard shotguns. The shockwaves, if at any point had a regular buttstock attached to them would become SBS but because the receivers are virgin and never had a stock or pistol grip attached they can have the 14" barrel and birdheads grip. The only reason the birdshead is on there is because the swept-back design brings the OAL length to over 26"
>> No. 106794 ID: e809d9
But still it's still a smoothbore so wouldn't that require an 18 inch barrel?
>> No. 106795 ID: 1519ac
Just because release triggers have been around doesn't mean anyone's thought of this before.
>> No. 106797 ID: e809d9
Just like a Mossberg Shockwave has always been theoretically legal but until 2010 nobody thought about the firearm loophole and even then everyone was afraid of actually doing it without registering it as an AOW until Mossberg stepped up and put their money where their month is.
>> No. 106798 ID: b00a13
I have no idea. The thought was that it might somehow throw the gun into the legal category of "firearm". I don't understand it.

That does mean that ether these shotguns with release triggers have been misclassified by the ATF for decades (not out of the realm of possibility, but now raises into question the legality of those sales seeing as the 4473 would have been submitted wrong) OR this has nothing to do with a release trigger. I think this potentially could have some unsavory legal ramifications if it is release trigger related.

Also, Franklin Armory already made a release trigger for AR15's back in 2015 called the RFS
>> No. 106803 ID: e809d9
File 151591164786.jpg - (321.68KB , 820x1102 , 05_top.jpg )
There's nothing illegal about registering a Mossberg cruiser as a shotgun instead of a pistol grip firearm, all it does is permanently fix the minimum barrel length at 18 inches.

I still think the Binary trigger is key; but if a release trigger alone is all it takes then I wonder when I'll be able to buy one of these from my local gunshop.
>> No. 106806 ID: e809d9
>> No. 106823 ID: ad2a44
How about a 0.01 inch barrel and welded 11.5 in flash suppressor?
>> No. 106824 ID: 19518e
File 151624502718.gif - (1.90MB , 316x213 , 1505449293288.gif )
>> No. 106829 ID: ad2a44
>> No. 106830 ID: e809d9
That would just make it a Shotgun with an 18 inch barrel requirement.
>> No. 106850 ID: 1519ac
Turns out it's straight grooves. 3-4 MOA with standard ammo but apparently they developed drag stabilized ammo that does better. 300 Blackout.
>> No. 106852 ID: f0fb5d
I believe that was 4 MOA at 50 yards.

I think their $2000 price tag causes this to flop. At that price, just buy/build a badass SBR. Also, people might try to build this on a virgin lower and get van'd because adding a stock makes it a rifle, regardless of what upper you intend to put on it.

The only "special ammo" I'm interested in is plasma bolts to be unveiled at Shot Show 2030 or whatever.
>> No. 106854 ID: 1519ac
In the video I saw the rep said 50 yards, but a rep on ARFCOM said testing was at 100 yards.
>> No. 106855 ID: 91d5af
File 151701177624.jpg - (67.31KB , 675x450 , mDvIpLf.jpg )
The fact that its "special ammo" is literally a tiny Nerf football is the icing on the cake.

There's just too much going on to justify this. I can say with a straight face that I'd take a 200$ stamp and the wait time over this any day of the week.
>> No. 106856 ID: 1519ac
File 151701270585.jpg - (521.06KB , 2000x1333 , article_2000_20180123063539995.jpg )
Yep. However, people in states where SBRs are illegal might be interested. Also supposedly this gets around the NY SAFE act because it's not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, so it's the only way to have a pistol gripped semiauto with detachable mags.
>> No. 106857 ID: da39fa
  I just realized the binary trigger is 0.5 A press of firearms.
>> No. 106860 ID: f5c3ed
NY is a special kind of stupid for a number of reasons, but with the echo/binary/whatever trigger it's automatically illegal since that "simulates full auto fire" which is a feature illegal even before the SAFE act.
>> No. 106861 ID: 1519ac
I didn't know about that and I'd love to read the law if you know how to find it, but from what I've heard the reformation series will include models with and without the binary trigger.
>> No. 106863 ID: f5c3ed

>(2) Such person possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell, firearm silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating a machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use;  or
>> No. 106864 ID: f5c3ed
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>> No. 106865 ID: 43af9f
All the Shot show folks I've talked to are giving this a big meh.
>> No. 106866 ID: 1d20e9
File 151711628129.jpg - (12.12KB , 670x447 , huggun.jpg )
lets fuck
>> No. 106869 ID: 6fa4f0
File 151718424458.png - (345.65KB , 507x500 , sleep atf.png )
>> No. 106880 ID: 1dec8f
>11.5 barrel
>everyone flips out about the trigger being the thing, even though they've been out forever

I honestly thought it was OAL maybe.

But nah.
It turned into the dumbest thing at SHOT.

I've heard 4MOA and 8MOA at 50m.
So uh, it's basically sad nerf buckshot and useless as fuck for the price tag they put on it.

I've been bitching about my Colt upper giving me 4MOA with shit ammo and 2MOA with good ammo.

I'm glad I've been humbled.
>> No. 106882 ID: 917332
Might as well rename MOA to Holocaust because every time I read about it the number gets bigger.
>> No. 106883 ID: 1dec8f
File 151746227682.jpg - (9.71KB , 750x375 , FB_IMG_1496703237107.jpg )
Almost dropped my coke reading that.

I'm using that in the future.
>> No. 106886 ID: 917332
Fucking seriously. Everytime I read about the Reformation its MOA gets bigger. First reports were 3 MOA.
Then I heard 3 to 4
Then 3 to 5
Now you're saying 4 to 8 MOA
>> No. 106897 ID: 19358d
Fun fact, straight rifling is actually something the French do to get around the pump action shotgun ban.
>> No. 106898 ID: 19358d
Fun fact, straight rifling is actually something the French do to get around the pump action shotgun ban.
>> No. 106988 ID: 19518e
File 151837270130.jpg - (116.73KB , 774x809 , psyops.jpg )
Sometimes I think that in the future, we'll see some weird shit pop up to get by stupid laws. These weird firearms might appear alongside some other normal guns. Sad as it is to imagine, I think some places in the US or even in other countries could have provinces or states that get polarized in firearm laws, where across one border could go from few restrictions to extremely idiotic restrictions. Stuff like a regular newfangled semi-auto coming out, but across the border to California or wherever, a "conforming" model would be some cybersteam technopunk abortion all like

>straight rifling or no rifling
>Neopup PAW20 grip style to avoid grip placement restrictions, on top of being thumbhole style grip
>upper and lower retained with a quick-release latch to make magazine changes quick despite having to almost field strip the gun to avoid magazine release/limit restrictions
>ammo is a new caliber that's a shotgun gauge so it isn't restricted by "pistol" or "rifle" calibers
>other ammo choice is a weird high-pressure proprietary "rimfire" for centerfire restrictions
>release-fire trigger
>action locks open after firing and then has a manual release (the "pull" part of the trigger pull) to close the action so it's not a "semi-auto" but a "manual action rifle"
>handguard is like a half-moon contraption that exposes barrel so it isn't a "barrel shroud"
>firearms built on "pistol" or "rifle" or "shotgun" marked uppers depending on desired configuration so the rest of the furniture can be applied later depending on barrel length and other features
>muzzles not threaded (to evade threaded muzzle restrictions) but grooved or lugged for muzzle devices
>extensive use of carbon fiber and shit to be under 50oz

When classifying your new gun starts costing the BATFE in psychiatric care for their lawyers, you know you have won.
>> No. 106996 ID: eb9469
>Pump Action Ban.
>In France.
Not even semi-autos are illegal.

For some retarded political reasons (as usual) smooth-bore pump action have been bumped to shooting license levels ("B" instead of hunting/skeet shooting license "C"), it's still perfectly legal to own just you have to be a French Shooting Federation member and fill the appropriate paperwork each time (which is essentially related to showing up 3 times a year at a gun range and owning a safe... What a chore!).
While "C" cat. weapon, you go to the shop you show your hunting license (it's like a driving license, you register, take a test and it's a lifetime thing. Hunting permits are zoned a seasonal. I think you need an active one when you're buying, but the license alone is enough to keep the guns), the shop does the paperwork (takes 5 minutes), you buy a dozen of fragmentation slugs boxes and you go home with it.

So yeah everyone just went "WTF?" and therefore most shotguns are rifled (thought smooth-bore aren't illegal) and since you can't hunt with a cat B weapons (again why? Nobody really knows) Verney Carron (french hunting rifle making company) made rails that still spin stabilize slugs but doesn't spread shot as much (+ very specific chokes).

So yeah shooting slugs out of a pump shotgun in France is way easier than birdshot.
Which is less dangerous for humans... thought no-one ever except politicians.
>> No. 107038 ID: 29f3da
>action locks open after firing and then has a manual release (the "pull" part of the trigger pull) to close the action so it's not a "semi-auto" but a "manual action rifle"

CZ did this already on a VZ58 to get around the Britbong semi-auto ban, it's called MARS (Manually Actuated Release System )
>> No. 107039 ID: cf843d
  InRange guys getting their skepticism on.
>> No. 107040 ID: 5c0000
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>> No. 107041 ID: 9dcda2
I only made it 2 minutes into the video. I hate it when they just grill the poor sales guy.
>> No. 107100 ID: 2c9a4e
File 152138041154.jpg - (380.26KB , 1500x1500 , OP_pls_Nerf.jpg )
>> No. 107101 ID: 866d6d
That's definitely something 10 year old me would have thought off and tried, but 10 year old me didn't run a gun company.
>> No. 107107 ID: 22ba7a
File 152168180776.jpg - (191.34KB , 711x828 , smoothbore_projo.jpg )
This whole nerf bullet makes me wonder if simply making a front-heavy bullet with a light rear, a bit like a brenneke slug, could work reasonably well and be cheaper than regular ammo + 30 cents.

Basically a regular swaged copper over lead core bullet with an attached aluminum or plastic tail. It might sound more expensive but depending on the method of attaching the tail, it could be incorporated into the swaging process for the rest of the bullet, like a crimped-on system, see 9001 hours in MSPAINT.

Left is the "bullet for smoothbore", right is a common poly-tip bullet. The process for making it would be similar, it would just be "upside down" and the proportions would change.
>> No. 107139 ID: 738b31
File 152204535081.jpg - (283.67KB , 1600x1200 , 30calpellet.jpg )
>> No. 107140 ID: 6fe1bd
Don't those still need some spin stabilisation? I don't know much about air guns...
>> No. 107141 ID: 0e1e77
File 152208245594.jpg - (38.56KB , 359x804 , airgun pellets.jpg )
The barrels of airguns are rifled.
For pellets, at least. BBs and darts probably don't fit snug enough to take advantage of rifling.
>> No. 107142 ID: 22ba7a
I was more asking if a smoothbore could use an air rifle pellet accurately. I have seen both unrifled and rifled air guns, the unrifled ones had "BB only" stuff on the boxes and shit but I'm not sure how inaccurate a pellet would be.
>> No. 107145 ID: 738b31
The diabolo shape keeps it pointed in the right direction, but lack of spin supposedly makes the effects of wind more pronounced. Probably won't win you any bench rest matches.
>> No. 107146 ID: 22ba7a
For this kind of gimmicky thing, I wouldn't assume they are aiming for sub-minute. I'm intrigued by it on principle, an accurate smoothbore is interesting just because it's different, and it's something that piques my curiosity.

It also might actually be a way to make cheap plinking cheaper. Cheap barrels, a simple swaged bullet design, just something to shoot standing within 100 yards or serve as short range self-defense carbine that would be cheap and effective.
>> No. 107150 ID: 19358d
So anyone want to try and jump on this train now to defuck this concept?
>> No. 107152 ID: 0e8e6d
Pellets are at a huge disadvantage compared to bullets, they actually start to lose velocity while still in the barrel.

To add more velocity, companies like FX airguns introduced something they call smooth twist barrels where the majority of the barrel is smooth, but it has a bit of rifling at the end to impart stabilization. Pretty much try to reduce friction as much as possible.

Technically, that technology has been around for a long time and shotguns have been using rifled chokes. But, this is the first time in an airgun and it is definitely more useful there than in the world of chemical propellants.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I've been obsessed with big bore airguns as of late.
>> No. 107153 ID: 22ba7a
>Pellets are at a huge disadvantage compared to bullets, they actually start to lose velocity while still in the barrel.
I can see this being the case with compressed air-propelled pellets.

My main question was about accuracy. If you fired a pellet at a supersonic speed with a smoothbore barrel, would the pellet tumble?

My posts as a whole in this thread were mostly directed to using a bullet design that would not need gyroscopic stability in supersonic flight for use in the Franklin Armory Reformation smoothbore rifle. Their "30 cents over regular ammo" thing sounds very expensive for their nerf football bullet, so a handloader or ammunition manufacturer could potentially make a cheap bullet with half decent accuracy for that type of rifle.
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