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File 143939436665.jpg - (52.26KB , 502x336 , CIMG4014-1.jpg )
7268 No. 7268 ID: de9789
If I ever acquire a time machine, the first thing I'm doing is going back in time and killing the fucking cunt that invented Torx screws.

"Less susceptible to stripping" my god damn ass.
Expand all images
>> No. 7269 ID: d8ab9d
Did you use a carbide drill to try and screw that thing? Holy shit. Torx really are about the best screw you can get.
>> No. 7270 ID: 9898e4
The only time I've had trouble with torx is when I've used the wrong size of bit for the screw. Quit being cheap and/or lazy and get the right size bit.
>> No. 7271 ID: ed343e
Less susceptible to stripping as long as you use a driver the correct size that isn't beat to fuck. No screw is immune to stripping, but in my experience torx is less susceptible than allen and robertson, and definitely less than philips.
>> No. 7272 ID: d8ab9d
>>7271
Philips is godawful. It's designed so that past a certain amount of torque, the driver shoots out of the screw. You know, against the same kind of idiots who put pipes on their wrenches (protip: wrenches have a certain length for a reason) and generally try to overtighten shit. Problem is of course that OP happens, except with philips it even happens with the right tool for the job. By design. Fuck philips. And Pozidriv, which is a minor variation thereof.

Torx is great though Allen is probably the way to go due to being far more common and still really good.

Fuck I hate philips.
>> No. 7273 ID: de9789
>>7269
>Did you use a carbide drill to try and screw that thing?

It's the first Google image result for "stripped Torx"...

>>7269
>Torx really are about the best screw you can get.

Fucking horseshit. The star pattern on Torx is more secure and more likely to prevent cam-out, but the tolerances on smaller screws is rather tight. If you start with the wrong T-size (which is incredibly easy to do) or apply too much pressure, you'll strip the screw head to the point of being able to utilize it proper in one or two attempts.

Given the difficulty of identifying Torx fastener size, their unforgiving and low-repeat use lifespan (you can remove a Phillip's head screw with the wrong size driver safely, good luck doing that with Torx), and Torx are "about the best screw you can get" for only one entity: Companies that have automated processes. It's about the most anti-consumer fastener type that has ever been developed that went into widespread use.

Torx is complete shit.

>>7270
>The only time I've had trouble with torx is when I've used the wrong size of bit for the screw. Quit being cheap and/or lazy and get the right size bit.

Try putting a T6 driver into a T6 screw that's been Loc-Tited and get back with me. Until then, feel free to go pound sand. Torx is shit.
>> No. 7274 ID: 2f62b7
Didn't we already do this in /k/ a while back
>> No. 7275 ID: e6c121
>>7273
People strip Phillips heads all the time using the wrong size driver. Frankly, I have a hard time counting driver "interchangeability" as a plus there. No one complains that they need to buy different size wrenches for different size bolts.

Also, it is better than pretty much anything as far as stripping out goes. That doesn't mean it's invincible. A screw is only so strong. One thing I notice too, is that the bits wear fairly fast as well.
>> No. 7276 ID: de9789
>>7275
>People strip Phillips heads all the time using the wrong size driver. Frankly, I have a hard time counting driver "interchangeability" as a plus there.

That wasn't my point.

Say you have a Torx screw in front of you. You have no idea what size it is for sure, and without using magnification being able to tell is god damned impossible.

Okay, you say. Just keep using driver bits until one fits. Say you keep going until T7 fits and works. Well, the bit might ACTUALLY be a T8. The extra clearance in the star pattern means more chance of stripping.

With a Phillips head, the same happens, but it's too a lesser degree. You can insert a, for instance, a 000 size into a 0000 screw and use it without too much issue because Phillips is tapered. Torx isn't. You bring up tools and how the heads wear out. Do you know why that is? It's because the screws are slightly out of spec or you're using just barely the wrong driver size and it's wearing on the non-tapered flat face of the Torx driver and making wear resistance along the whole fucking surface (instead of just one continuous point of contact on a Phillips head).

Interchangeability isn't what makes Phillips slightly better than Torx. No one is sitting around holding their Frearson drivers and stroking them, glad that they can finally use them on Phillips head screws.

I'm not even saying Phillips is good, either. It's an outdated screw concept that was made, purposely, to cam out and to do so well. That said, Torx is just so shitty that Phillips is automatically better.

I've seen people whine and talk shit about flat head, phillips, hex, allen, and even fucking Robertson laughably enough. And I can tell you right fucking now that as common as phillips are, I've stripped multiple Torx screws for each phillips I have, and mostly due to getting into knives.

And it has absolutely jackshit to do with my drivers. They're Wiha. They're some of the best fucking Torx drivers on the market. No, the problem is two-fold: 1.) The DESIGN of the Torx screw and (related) 2.) The quality of them. Torx require greater tolerances to operate well. Some, even well made screws, are simply out of spec. Because of how Torx is designed, there's not really a damn thing you can do with that.

Encounter more Torx bits in more circumstances from more supplies and I guarantee you'll start seeing a pattern of a problem.
>> No. 7277 ID: d8ab9d
>>7273
You're honestly the only one I've heard to have used torx and NOT like it more than anything.

Big, small, loctited or not, torx has been nothing but good for me and any collegues at various companies in the industrie I've ever spoken too.

Frustrating though it may be, you might want to find the failure point elsewhere, rather than the Torx spec. Cheap chinese out-of-spec screws, maybe.
>> No. 7278 ID: e6c121
>>7276
Uhh, m8, it's pretty obvious when it fits or if it's one size down. If it fits, there is basically zero play at all, to the point where often the driver bit is sucked out of the magnetic holder by the friction of the screw on the bit.

Also, I fasten and unfasten literal hundreds of torx screws a day and hardly ever have a problem.

Also, the reason screws wear out in my experience is due to the thinness of the web between each lobe, which leads it to gradually "creep" in the direction torque is applied. But luckily the damage is gradual and readily apparent. Hell, once you go up to the larger ones used on out face mills, it's the bits that wear out, gradually twisting and finally shearing off at the tip.
>> No. 7280 ID: 381ee6
File 143949546397.jpg - (51.26KB , 498x367 , universal.jpg )
7280
Engineering 101: No matter how perfect it is on paper, no matter how well it works in best case scenarios, if the design is intolerant of real life or worst case situations, the design is by definition flawed!

Torx is designed to be what they call "tamper resistant" for the end user, which basically means they don't want anyone but robots or autistic assembly line people to use them

Robertson is pretty boss and my favorite, an incompetent Pakistani can manufacture Robertson out of soft copper, leave it in saltwater for years, use a tool a size too small, and probably still remove it

>>7270
>the correct size
And that's a problem because torx comes in too many "correct sizes" and they're all sensitive as fuck

It requires people to be nearsighted or to use magnifying lenses to tell if the size is perfect
It requires the screw to be made of high quality metal
It requires the precise drive size to the torque requirement
Torx doesn't tolerate overuse of force or anything complicating extraction either, imo the safest place for torx is metal-on-metal and even then only to be assembled by robots

Torx in expanded wood? Try to get torx out, you're fucked
Elastic forces in polymer adding too much thread grip? You're fucked
Screwed in by some machine with too much force? Fucked
Rusty screw head or thread? Fucked
Get any minor detritus into the drive? Fucked
Glue or anything else on the thread? Fucked
Non-steel screw (copper or aluminium)? Fucked
Inferior quality steel screw? Still fucked!

>>7275
>I have a hard time counting driver "interchangeability" as a plus there
lol fuck that mindset and the horse it rode in on

>No one complains that they need to buy different size wrenches for different size bolts.
Yeah they do, that's why adjustable wrenches exist
That's also why people are busting their asses developing universal screwdrivers, I remember some weird example using corn starch filled bags

The point is this: If a guy got a long workday in a tough place to get to, or if there's an emergency situation, he can't always bring along 10 pounds of screwdrivers and 50 pounds of wrenches to be up to spec on ridiculously tight tolerance screws and bolts which require a microscope to get the right size
>> No. 7282 ID: de9789
>>7278
>Uhh, m8, it's pretty obvious when it fits or if it's one size down. If it fits, there is basically zero play at all, to the point where often the driver bit is sucked out of the magnetic holder by the friction of the screw on the bit.

Out. Of. Spec. Screws.

Because of how Torx is designed, the star pattern requires closer tolerances. You *WILL* receive out of spec screws, no matter the manufacturer. Add bad tolerances with bad (or even no) hardening from questionable metals and you start to see the failures of the design. Even cheap Chinese shit Phillips and flatheads work a few times before they inevitably strip.

But even well-made Torx screws from reputable companies will fail given enough time. Because Torx doesn't cam out, you also have issues with overtightening due to it being designed to prevent cam-out. In fact, the issue that caused me to get pissed off with this was a new American-made Kershaw with a Torx body screw that I suspect was overtightened to the point that it seized or deformed. It was the only screw on the entire knife that I had any issues with. And Kershaw uses decent Torx screws.

>>7280
This guy knows what's up.

>That's also why people are busting their asses developing universal screwdrivers, I remember some weird example using corn starch filled bags

The person that invents an effective and reliable universal screw driver deserves a Nobel Prize. I'm not even fucking joking.
>> No. 7283 ID: de0bec
File 143952146158.jpg - (28.74KB , 400x450 , kershaw-skyline-carbon-fiber-stonewash.jpg )
7283
>>7277
I don't really like torx either. I have adjusted a fair amount of torx screws on my various work knives (my favorite of which are Kershaw, and I encounter the exact same problem as Mike), and having them strip out is a common thing. Maby the bigger sizes are great but anything below a T8 is shit, which is exactly the kind of sizes I encounter.

Now, with that size of fastener, I do not realistically expect anything to actually be nice to deal with, but there is definitely some undeserved hype when it comes to torx. I feel like torx is probably more geared toward protecting the bit than the screw. Frankly, I'd rather replace a bit than have to macgyver a fucked screw out yet again.

TL:DR
I know Mike's feel.
>> No. 7284 ID: de9789
File 143954228778.jpg - (38.96KB , 600x408 , fist-slide.jpg )
7284
>>7283
Oh shit. You have a carbon fiber Skyline too? 0687 reporting. Great knife.
>> No. 7285 ID: d8ab9d
>blaming torx for overtightening retards
ok
>> No. 7286 ID: de9789
>>7285
>doesn't understand that Torx was designed to prevent cam-out, so is therefore more prone to over-tightening from the manufacturer
ok
>> No. 7288 ID: d8ab9d
>>7286
Not being suitable for retards isnt the same as bad. Overtightening is a mental issue, not a technical one.

Look at it as a screw for more intelligent people, who can get more out of it.
>> No. 7290 ID: de9789
>>7288
>Not being suitable for retards isnt the same as bad. Overtightening is a mental issue, not a technical one.

Are you being deliberately dense? Do you think automatic screwdrivers are mentally deficient? Is it not getting through your skull that this is a manufacturing process issue, and therefore IT IS a technical one? Apparently not.

>Look at it as a screw for more intelligent people, who can get more out of it.

Jesus Christ, if you're exactly of what kind of the "more intelligent" and "enlightened" users and proponents of Torx are capable of when it comes to facing counter viewpoints, evidence and experience, I think you're making my argument for me.

All you need now is a fedora and a sub-reddit and you'll be set.
>> No. 7291 ID: d0816b
I guess I just don't understand the reality you guys live in, in which overtightened screws are the screws fault rather than the man or machine's, where you don't fuck up Phillips with improper bits but you do fuck up torx with proper ones due to manufacturing defects in the torx head which somehow are prevalent enough to be a problem despite me having gone through probably tens of thousands of different torx screws of all different sizes and having only found one defective screw ever (which didn't have threads but still had a proper head) and manufacturers' auto drivers regularly over tighten even though my 8 year old gun with no calibration is still on spec (cleco btw). Also a t handle set for all the common sizes can't be more than a pound. Let alone if you are using interchangable tip driver set. People tolerate this shit for allen, hex bolts etc without ever having to break out the old nut rounders. Its a different fastener head with different characteristics.

And by the way. The hundreds of screws I fasten and unfasten spend their time immersed in oil emulsified in water while being subjected to incredibly high stress of crashing into metal and being showered with metal chips. Some of them have been sitting for ages covered in rust and gummy yellow brown shit left by bacteria growing in the aforementioned fluid. Yet I have almost never have a problem inserting the proper size bit and unfastening it. Hell. I just undid like fifty torx screws in plastic with no problem a month ago fixing my wife's VW (Germans apparently love that shit, they were everywhere). Had to use a small breaker bar to break em loose, but not a single one stripped. And these ones were in the wheel well of an car and no I did not clean them before doing so. Car is a 98 so not exactly brand new.

Obviously our experiences differ due to the fact that we are likely working on very different things. But it differs so much that I have a hard time believeing that you aren't overstating the problem.

Also. I too have a Skyline, but its the non CF version. In fact. Three out of four pocket knives I have are Kershaw. Though ironically. My latest knife which was a gift from RTF and another friend is one that has Phillips everywhere.
>> No. 7292 ID: de9789
>>7291
Here's an important question: What size are these Torx screws?
>> No. 7293 ID: e6c121
>>7292
T7, T15, T20 on a regular basis, especially T15. The car ones were T20 and T30 mostly I think? Can't really remember and the car aint here, but it was decently sized. I occasionally have had to deal with smaller than T7 but never bigger than T30 in my life. Seems like anything above that size is Allen for sure.

Also, the ones from work are actually Torx plus, IIRC. dunno about the ones on the VW. Standard Torx drivers can drive Torx plus (but not to full torque obviously since the shape isn't exactly right) but not vice versa.
>> No. 7294 ID: de9789
>>7293
>T7, T15, T20 on a regular basis, especially T15.
>I occasionally have had to deal with smaller than T7 but never bigger than T30 in my life.

There's the problem. I haven't had a knife pass through my hands that has bigger than T8 on it (they exist, some have pivot screws of T10, but that's about as big as it gets).

About 90% of the time, all the body screws and pocket clip screws are T6. Some are even T4.

You might not have much issue with T15s and T20s or Torx Plus, but you're also having the benefit of much more relaxed tolerances and thicker metal in the fastener's head which prevents stripping for longer periods of time.

T4, T6? That's pretty god damn small to have such a pattern. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I looked it up once before and found out that the tolerances are about a millimeter or so in the star pattern. And with metal that thin and tolerances that close, even the tiniest amount of deformation can fuck up the screw head in no time.
>> No. 7295 ID: c561cd
File 143986680397.jpg - (17.68KB , 590x174 , Wrench-Extender-Features.jpg )
7295
>>7274
Yup.

KSM was full retard in that thread too.

>>7272
> You know, against the same kind of idiots who put pipes on their wrenches...

I do this all the time. To LOOSEN shit.

Hell, I used a 6 foot cheater bar on my 3/4" drive breaker bar to break loose a seized turbine engine today. After that, the start motor and my 24" ratchet got that bitch rolling.

Leverage is awesome.

Ooo, just found this on the interwebs. I might have to get one.
>> No. 7296 ID: de9789
>>7295
I see you're still mad over that monitor thread.

Regardless, I don't even recall being in a thread that had a conversation that even talked about fasteners (much less Torx) and when I do I'm pretty clear on why I think they're shit and explain my position (and as you see here, I'm hardly alone in having it). You're free to disagree with me. Then again, that still seems to be a concept you have trouble grasping (If it wasn't so late I'd go for a tool joke there, but meh.).
>> No. 7297 ID: d8ab9d
>>7295
Loosening shit is different I guess. Kind of an anything goes kinda situation, since the getting fucked part has already been done at that point.
>> No. 7298 ID: caa2fa
>>7296

I'd forgotten about the monitor thread. I just remembered the part about you being a retard.

http://operatorchan.org/k/res/87020+50.html

You don't remember posting in that thread, 5 times?

I wouldn't argue that torx fasteners are good, just that they're the least bad. Although I'm really starting to hate Phillips.
>> No. 7299 ID: caa2fa
>>7297
Not even that it's fucked, just that breaking torque is something like 150% of the fastening torque. Rusty shit especially. At work its SOP to spray anything you plan to take apart down with penetrating oil before even attempting to break it loose.
>> No. 7300 ID: d8ab9d
>>7299
Exposure to high temperatures also doesn't help, I'm sure.
>> No. 7301 ID: de9789
>>7298
>You don't remember posting in that thread, 5 times?

A thread from 4 months ago? No, not really.

And I didn't even remember that it was you that I was talking with. But, wow, it just so happened to be you. What a shock.

The fact that you just brought up a 4 month old thread (where the egregious crime of joking occurred) where you instigated the debate and I replied to you and others ranting about it tells me you're far too asspained over that still.

I think thou doth taketh things too personally and seriously.
>> No. 7302 ID: de9789
>>7300
>Exposure to high temperatures also doesn't help, I'm sure.

Depends. With Loctite it does. I've been meaning to get a soldering iron with that in mind. Since even blue Loctite thread locker starts losing cohesiveness above something like 500 degrees.

But in regular practice, you're right, it wouldn't. Thermal expansion and all that jazz might actually make the tolerances tighter and create more friction.
>> No. 7303 ID: e6c121
Heating up stuff doesn't increase the maximum allowable dimensional variances in manufacturing.
>> No. 7307 ID: f2c4ed
I spent ten hours last night shooting #2 Phillips screws into panels on a 737. Phillips bits can fuck themselves. I'd rather be using Torx (less cam-out) or Square-Drive Master Race.

I don't mind Allen keys, but in my experience, they're more prone to failure from the tool being worn than anything else, so they're fantastic right up until the tool gets a slight round to it, then they're utter shit.

Coin slots may be the worst ever.

But everything sucks when idiots over-torque shit.
>> No. 7308 ID: 368c85
torx a shit. polydrive is where it's at.
>> No. 7309 ID: d8ab9d
>>7307
Square drive and square headed bolts are nice. Triangle sockets too.
>> No. 7310 ID: d8ab9d
>>7302
Yeah I assume jet engines dont use loctite on most screws.

I dunno. Could be stupidly wrong here, but I see locking wire a lot.
>> No. 7311 ID: de9789
>>7307
The sad part is that Henry Ford tried to license Robertson for his fastener type because he found it better and faster for manufacturing. Robertson declined, so Ford limited the use of them to Canadian manufacturing and used fasteners like Phillips instead.

Had Robertson not been so reluctant to lease out his design, I have no doubt that manufacturers like Ford would have used it and it would have caught on in popularity. Who knows, in an alternative universe maybe they're discussing how weird and odd and annoying it is to see a Phillips head.
>> No. 7312 ID: e1463b
>>7307
Nigger, you're an assembler, of course you love torx.


Guys, your autism is showing, coin slots is great for .22lr bottom metal.

Everything has a fucking place y'all.
>> No. 7313 ID: 6d6cb1
File 144013770326.jpg - (167.00KB , 650x429 , 42a.jpg )
7313
>>7312
>Everything has a fucking place y'all.
You're absolutely correct.
>> No. 7314 ID: f2c4ed
>>7312
I only assemble things after we've done the repairs. One day it's "Depanel that whole wing", the next it's "lube the shit out of everything", another it's "go fix that one tiny thing that QC found",and then it's finally "go repanel it."

Speaking of which, last night I learned just how prone to galling titanium is. I got to fuck up a $327 titanium bolt with a $16 steel self-locking nut, and my TL was like "it happens...regularly. Go get another one from parts."

A standard hex-head bolt is the master race of all fasteners, but they don't come in a flush version.
>> No. 7315 ID: f3d37a
>googles specs on Torx screws
>T4 still larger than 1mm

pfff.

stop being so hamm fisted.
>> No. 7403 ID: 0dcdc8
File 144321798888.png - (132.92KB , 720x202 , front-banner.png )
7403
>>7268
>"Less susceptible to stripping" my god damn ass.

If you use the wrong size bit consistently or try to force it with a phillips then that is on you.

You can also go non-screw up Robertson with the flathead option.
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