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File 151841833015.jpg - (17.66KB , 500x375 , 41j678dW0iL.jpg )
111762 No. 111762 ID: 738b31
Hey operators what do you think of the possibility of AI being able to distort any information on the web to a point where even basic facts and communications between individuals was suspect?
Shit like the #releasethememo and FCC getting millions of 'individuals' calling for the end of net nutrality is one thing, but what happens when coordinated effort hits to rewrite sections of history or fabricate current events.

pic not related, just a book I can't find fucking anywhere
Expand all images
>> No. 111763 ID: a083c4
File 151843440637.jpg - (790.94KB , 1810x2444 , f2c7654b390b6409db9b15b5cf11fcb0a53d1d0f78500081ab.jpg )
111763
It's a legitimate concern. Almost everyone uses google and facebook for everything and they could change what people are seeing easily.

It's one of the reasons maintaining *chans even in the age of reddit and facebook is kind of important because most of them are relatively independent.

inb4 Bat Guano.
>> No. 111764 ID: da39fa
>he thinks facts ever mattered in the first place, at any point in human history
Sweet child.
>> No. 111765 ID: 278cbe
>>111764
In most basic sense, they do matter, since your statement can be described as opinion, not a fact.

>>111762
AI is just a tool, and as every tool, it has controls and outputs.

Every nation or movement has a foundation in some form of legend which can be manipulated, but for all I know, Americans are the most exploited and artificial one in that relation.

The question is the limits in which the former can control the latter in relation to real-world situation (which can not be ignored by any means). Thus the "distributed republic" concept. Seriously, you should have learned already, the more "independent" any movement usually declares itself, the more dependent on itself it becomes as the result. I just wonder how many cults will be born as the result and how far they will go.

>basic facts
I mean, ordinary people still have little evidence and rarely conscious enough to understand that there are many views of the world and their "basic facts" may be entirely different from someone else's "basic facts". Of course, there's the idea that "modern basic facts" written in "modern internet resources" located in "modern Internet, accessible to everyone" - are much better in actuality, than anybody else's. But in broader definitions, it is just an illusion US created for itself to show it's dominance over the world.

Such superstitions are usually short-lived, but have long-lasting effects - the real knowledge is distributed through entire population of people and can not be replaced by AI or Internet database. Even if, for tiny amount of time, some of that information is concentrated mostly in one language and one common platform, there's no guarantee that it will survive even past the next economical shift. I recommend you to read the novel called "Dinner in Audoghast", for the reference.
>> No. 111766 ID: 7fecba
File 151845496379.jpg - (168.62KB , 985x1278 , US P WW2 Night Patrol, Norge Household Appliances,.jpg )
111766
>>111763
Rational debate won't count for shit when basic information can be distorted so easily and convincingly by computers and armies of bots spreading disinformation.
Norge!
Night Patrol, Norge Household Appliances, Life 10/25/1943
>> No. 111767 ID: 7fecba
File 151845581950.jpg - (214.10KB , 1504x1600 , US WW2 M2 _50 Colt Browning water-cooled GM-Frigid.jpg )
111767
WW-II Era GM-Frigidaire Browning .50 cal Water Cooled Machine Gun on "Tora-Tora" Mount. Formerly on loan to Evergreen Aviation & Space Museum. Estimate: $25K-35K.
>> No. 111768 ID: d79d08
File 151845778061.jpg - (2.04MB , 3500x2333 , malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17.jpg )
111768
Who says you need a AI? You can already distort facts well enough without it. Just look at how long it took to debunk the Russia Dindoo narrative about MH17. Confederate "lost cause" and "war of northern aggression" bullshit. Holocaust denial. The ever persistent German Military Greatness myth. The "Russia suffered the most in WWII" myth.
>> No. 111769 ID: 278cbe
File 151846408711.jpg - (45.85KB , 700x428 , 41d869bcbb009338502afeed4a843c591405776227.jpg )
111769
>>111768
>You can already distort facts well enough without it.
>Just look at how long it took to debunk the Russia Dindoo narrative about MH17.
About 45 minutes, for what I know. Conveniently, after that mark nobody tried to somewhat alter or develop that advanced theory, because, you know, proofs are for stupid people.

>Holocaust denial. The ever persistent German Military Greatness myth. The "Russia suffered the most in WWII" myth.
I can feel the desperation all the way across the Atlantic.
>> No. 111770 ID: addd7a
>>111769
>Russia Dindoo narrative about MH17.

Except they did...
>> No. 111771 ID: 9fdb2a
File 151849354040.jpg - (134.86KB , 700x525 , B9bK6yf.jpg )
111771
>>111769
>The "Russia suffered the most in WWII" myth.
>I can feel the desperation all the way across the Atlantic.

because China doesn't exist and wasn't the first country to lead the fight against world fascism.
>> No. 111772 ID: 6e9258
File 151851513147.png - (117.45KB , 600x238 , 2 (48).png )
111772
>>111766
I would argue that bots are less important and too mechanical to be operated en masse, it is easier to command people. After all, the most important part of information control is massive ignorance and lack of general education of population. Much as lack of literacy makes African peasants believe in spirits and rituals, the lack of economical and political knowledge in "developed countries" makes people believe that capitalism will lead them into the better future.

The real control comes from combination of modern political and electronic technology. Political technology ensures there could be no freedom of though in the society. Electronic communication ensure that no outside factors can break through to destroy that condition of mind - no matter how much will break through, it will be omitted entirely if it is not delivered with sufficient persistence. This is done not by directly enforcing information to people, but rather by positive feedback in their perception - manipulation of search engines, news feeds, social nets, etc. Modern corporations don't even bother to hide it anymore, since these methods are already accepted as part of the "freedom" everyone deserve.

One of the examples I can remember and the one that bothers me the most is the existence of "Space 2.0" - a multi billion dollar society of extremely wealthy persons, who declared themselves to be a driving force behind progress and urge everybody to pledge money to their cause - despite severe lack of concrete results. The society is existing entirely through media, advertisements, marked manipulation, and in effect, is as far from actual space exploration as one can possibly be. Several attempts to create a competition in this area resulted in a group of reject invest funds which produce a bunch of unimpressive and defunct prototypes. Most recent of them is being Lunar Xprize - cancelled recently without any results or rewards issued. These people declare themselves to be an open society offering the best to humanity and at the same time they classify their funding and internal business and strive to control the information to the point of prohibition.

>>111770
>Except they did
Except you did not even bother to read his post thoroughly enough to understand what he said.

Except 3.5 years later "experts" are yet to agree, who "they" are and what they did. Some claim that omnipresent "Putin's mercenaries" did this on purpose. Others say that these were "pro-russian separatists" who hit the plane by accident. Some can possibly remember that is was a mistake on air traffic control part, too. The facts are that the plane was shot down by Ukraininan occupational regime to blame it on Russia as a convenient cause to impose sanctions (typical CIA false flag scenario).

>>111771
Arguably, the nation most suffered nation of WW2 was Belorussian one, up to 25% of which was wiped out by German invaders and their collaborators. But since at the time it was part of USSR, it is usually does not count as a record number. Officially, the most suffered nation of WW2 is Poland, with 16% casualties, but at least their cities weren't smashed into rubble. Anyway, China suffered less in absolute numbers and in relative.

>wasn't the first country to lead the fight against world fascism
For your general knowledge, there was a fascist regime in China for considerable period of time, which killed a lot of communists at that. To credit China's efforts, at least they defeated it eventually.
>> No. 111773 ID: 8ea750
>>111772
>Except 3.5 years later "experts" are yet to agree, who "they" are and what they did.

Dutch safety board: "the missile was fired from a area known to be under rebel control, further the rebels claimed they shot down an aircraft on social media and then deleted their posts, the missile launcher was then transported into Russia to hide it"
Russian shill on operatorchan: "but this report from the department of homeopathic telepathy at the university of moscow says it was a swan trained to fly up and attach limpet mines to the airplane! the experts don't agree!"
>> No. 111774 ID: 278cbe
File 151854796715.jpg - (99.50KB , 560x748 , 326121_original.jpg )
111774
>>111773
>Dutch safety board
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

>from a area known to be
>rebels claimed
>the missile launcher was then transported into Russia to hide it
I'm starting to doubt people's ability to read words written in black on white since this phrasing does not directly say "rebels shot down MH17". Nor does the report. It does not even contain words like "rebel" or "separatist", for that matter.

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/miscellaneous-reports/mh17-crash-en.pdf
>> No. 111775 ID: 6c0b37
>>111774
>MUH PROOFS
>RUSSIA DINDOO!
>RUSSOPHOBIA BY DUTCH JEWNAZIS! CUCKS!
>> No. 111776 ID: a7b658
>>111771
actually China (Nationalist China that is) was pretty buddy buddy with the Nazis for a long while. The Nazis even seriously considered backing China as their main east Asian ally for a while, but then things with Japan got complicated.
>> No. 111778 ID: 7fecba
File 151856892277.jpg - (50.58KB , 500x505 , Chinese WW2 National Revolutionary Army troops ins.jpg )
111778
>>111776
The Chinese National Revolutionary Army (NRA) certainly bought arms and equipment from Germany and were on friendly relationships with Germany.

- Chinese National Revolutionary Army troops inspected by German officers, Second Sino-Japanese War.
>> No. 111779 ID: 7fecba
File 151856921399.jpg - (531.87KB , 1247x843 , Chinese WW2 troops w German equipment 1940.jpg )
111779
Maybe the Chinese just liked the swastikas?
>> No. 111780 ID: 7fecba
File 151856933546.jpg - (1.70MB , 4739x4573 , Chinese WW2 Type 24 Maxim water-cooled machine gun.jpg )
111780
But the Chinese ones are reversed.
>> No. 111781 ID: 738b31
I think we are coming up on a different kind of reality manipulation than what we've known in the past. Things like the MH17 incident are dubious, but we all know that a 'truth' of what happened is going to be mostly conjecture from scarce physical evidence and a lot so spin from governments with vested interests in a particular narrative.

I mean I think we are coming up to a point where even clearly documented events like public speeches made by elected officials could be suspect of complete fabrication, unless you have first hand experience of the event itself.
Or completely fabricated events are presented as truth with such vividness that any debunking or fact checking would happen to late to mitigate the impact, or worse be dismissed as conspiracy.

A reality where everything can be dismissed because falsehoods can be fabricated so accurately as to be indistinguishable from genuine evidence. It would be like everyone having the madness of the most fervent Trump supporter. Truth would not enter into the conversation, there would only be belief.
>> No. 111782 ID: 812ccc
>>111776
IIRC a number of SA and non-Nazi fascists ended up advising the KMT after they had to flee Germany. And there was the whole thing where John Rabe saved about a quarter million people during the rape of Nanking.

Of course the Chinese factions are largely inconsequential to the suffering of the common people. Generally the only difference between the KMT and the Communists was that the Communists left behind a receipt when they stole all your food and left you to starve. And of course the Japanese made the Krauts look like choir boys.

But mainly the "Russia suffered the most" narrative is patiently false and has mainly been pushed by tankies mad at Mao after the Sino-Soviet Split, and by racists who fear Asians. (Similarly you see communists refusing to differentiate between the different "victims of fascism" in the holocaust, because Russians generally endorse Nazi Germany's racial policies towards non-Slavs.)
>> No. 111783 ID: 7fecba
File 151861413439.png - (68.41KB , 1000x651 , WW2 casualties 1.png )
111783
I thought the winner of the country that suffered the most in WW2 was the Soviet Union with around 20 million deaths including 8,668,400 military deaths, but some sources have China's war dead at 20 million as well.

Belarus claims to have suffered the worst devastation of any country during the war in terms of a percentage of its population. Over a quarter of its population, 2,290,000 people, died during the conflict. Poland lost around 6,000,000 people which is around 17% of its 1939 population of 34,800,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
>> No. 111784 ID: 278cbe
File 151864104093.jpg - (64.26KB , 638x638 , the_war_is_not_meant_to_be_won___george_orwell_by_.jpg )
111784
>>111778
>bought arms and equipment from Germany
If only it was about Germany. Too bad, because it was such a tremendous failure, US treats this episode of history as if it did not happen.
https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-allies-help-China-against-Mao-with-military-action

>>111782
>Similarly you see communists refusing to differentiate between the different "victims of fascism" in the holocaust
Of course 6 millions of Jews are victims of Nazi Germany, but clearly 20 millions Communists aren't the same cause. Because they are Communists. The difference is obvious.

>because Russians generally endorse Nazi Germany's racial policies towards non-Slavs
That's why, probably, USSR had only 70% of Slavic people surrounded by hundreds of other ethnic groups, which they did not bother to exterminate, disperse, remove or otherwise get rid of through thousand years of their history.
>> No. 111785 ID: cce514
>>111784
>which they did not bother to exterminate, disperse, remove or otherwise get rid of through thousand years of their history.

LMAO. And the Han Chinese are very respectful of China's ethnic and religious minorities.

The natives in Alaska reacted extremely violently to the arrival of Russian traders/slavers, because tribes in the Aleutians and Siberia had warned them about what was going to happen when the Russians arrived.
>> No. 111787 ID: 278cbe
Now, for the sake of the topic, I'd like to present you with an original idea I devised some time ago, for my own entertainment, as usual. Today I thought it would be great to call it "snickers phenomenon". Everybody in my country know what "Snickers" is, and it was popular brand name since pretty long time. Everybody know what it is and there's no need for introduction.

Well, this is a pretty hypothetical effect in practice, but if you ask a sufficiently immature person on the street about any famous brand name "where it is produced", most of sufficiently young, normal and innocent people will be rather puzzled by this question. Obviously they don't grow on trees, nor they can be produced in local food factory. They are famous American brand, so probably, they come from America. Like, in big container ships. American producers make them and ship to Russia, as they do with hamburgers for McDonalds, Apple products, software and chicken legs. Other products are probably coming from other developed countries in - air refresher sprays, cosmetics, toilet paper, utensils, office supplies, and many many more things. Sometimes they are right.

And when I say there are people out there who think like that, I mean it. Adoult people, too. There's even a group of native producers that specifically make brand names that leave the impression of respectable brand name from European country. I mean, all you have to do to know the answer of such stupid and naive question is to take the package of that fucking Snickers chocolate bar and read from it "Producer: OOO (i.e. private limited company) Mars (subdivision of original US company), Russia, Moscow region, Stupinsky district, Stupino-1" in four languages. It's just nobody bothers to do that.

I think, it is somewhat similar to duckling syndrome, and it can be cured easily with sufficient amount of education. But sufficient amount of education interferes with the idea of commerce. And if you think there's no such thing in "developed countries", you are so mistaken - I am probably able to recognize it because it is a relatively new development for insufficiently commercialized reality, but in sufficiently developed society, it is just another brick in the building. There are so many things in our world designed like that, and especially in ideology - they are used in massive amounts as a surrogate of truth instead of actual and honest belief. They are designed to fail, and they fail eventually, and all you have to do to not fall into such simple superstition is just look on the package and read what is written on it.
>> No. 111788 ID: 278cbe
>>111785
>The natives in Alaska reacted extremely violently to the arrival of Russian traders/slavers
>Aleutians and Siberia had warned them
Probably because there were trade routes and means of long-range transportation and communication before Russians came in? Do you have even approximate idea what the fuck are you talking about?
>> No. 111790 ID: 1d521e
  >>111772

ahem
>> No. 111792 ID: 278cbe
  >>111790
>The Public Prosecution Service[2] (Dutch: Openbaar Ministerie, OM) is the body of public prosecutors in the Dutch criminal justice system.
That is a bit better example, even though it does not deal with any of the evidence the crash site presented.

>100% of the video is computer generated graphics (except maybe 1% of the photos from "social nets")
>telephone towers intercepting military conversations
>covert military conversations going through mobile phones
>JIT/Ukraine intercepting conversations by unknown means
>at 10:30 the path is clearly traced to the Luhansk city, where it magically teleports over the border into Russia
Okay, this may be actually a greatest in history attempt at solving the case without having a single piece of reliable information (especially from Ukrainian forces occupying the region at the time), but it still does not answer the major question any sane person may ask. One well-established fact states that is impossible for single AA unit to target specific object and the rocket could only be fired without guidance and identification. Other well-established fact indicates that, to fire the missile, you need to have a proper education and training. What is purpose of special operation to transport a single rocket and fire it blindly into the sky, is left for public to wander. Surprisingly enough, nobody cares.

What little ducklings like people of this thread really do not understand is that every side of the conflict is already aware about what happened. Everyone but them. Netherlands are already aware, of course, because it is their people died and they have enough evidence, and they do not want to provoke any troubles for themselves. Americans, of course, were watching every second of the tragedy unfolding. Ukrainians know what happened, because it was their hands doing that. Russians know because they have the control over the skies and eyes all around. It is not just random witnesses, low resolution photos and badly montaged "phone calls", but actual recorded radar data and electronic intelligence, reports and operational plans, instructions and cables. Even average internet "citizen" can put together some of the pieces and figure out the essence of event. But not a single young duckling does know about any of it. He is alone in this cold unforgiving world and there's nobody here to help him.
>> No. 111797 ID: 1d521e
>>111792

So let me get this straight, you think Ukranians shot down MH17 as a false flag and the Netherlands is helping them cover it up? Because reasons?

>>One well-established fact states that is impossible for single AA unit to target specific object and the rocket could only be fired without guidance and identification

It was a BUK TELAR not a BUK TEL. The AR stands for *And Radar*. It is a self sufficient AA vehicle that *MAY* be linked to a command vehicle and be fed additional information from a stand alone surveillance radar, but that doesn't mean it's incapable of engaging targets by itself. The fact that it was operating on its own is probably a likely reason why it wound up engaging an air liner.


>>Other well-established fact indicates that, to fire the missile, you need to have a proper education and training.

Yeah, about that, do you know how little technical training Russian forces get? I mean, consider how little flight time their pilots get. If their pilots aren't getting quality training, what makes you think their AA crews are going to be the cream of the crop?

Occam's razor; What is more likely? A Ukranian/Dutch coverup or a Russian AA crew making a mistake? Seperatists even made posts claiming to have shot down an AN-26, until they realized they fucked up big time and took them down.

There's plenty of evidence pointing at a Russian/Seperatist fuckup. There's really no evidence of a Ukrainian false-flag or a Dutch coverup. Keep in mind 196 Dutch citizens (including a Senator) died on that plane. The Dutch aren't going to figure out "oh the Ukrainians did it, better let this one slide for our Anti-Russia narrative". How divorced from reality do you have to be where that's more likely than the Russians pushing things as far as they can and a mistake happening?
>> No. 111798 ID: 278cbe
  >>111797
>Because reasons?
Because civil war and government coup.

>The fact that it was operating on its own is probably a likely reason why it wound up engaging an air liner.
That is what I said. Isolated from regional complex of AA systems it means firing blindly. If it was connected to radar network, it would have known the difference with 100% certainty.

>Yeah, about that, do you know how little technical training Russian forces get?
A technical specialist who suddenly forgets that he may be firing at different target of different size at different altitude with different speed? Excuse me, that's a bit too much of a stretch for investigation in normal circumstances. Not to mention "prosecution" says it was not a fuck up, it was a dedicated operation (without mentioning any other similar activities related to it).

>Occam's razor; What is more likely? A Ukranian/Dutch coverup or a Russian AA crew making a mistake?
Considering the proximity of aggressively expanding NATO block it is a coverup that, ofc, involves not only those two countries.

>Seperatists even made posts claiming to have shot down an AN-26, until they realized they fucked up big time and took them down.
The post was made by people observing the event from the ground, they've had no way to confirm what they are seeing. And it was deleted as soon as it was disproved. Do you want to treat it as a confession, or a testimony?

>There's really no evidence of a Ukrainian false-flag or a Dutch coverup.
If you close your eyes, reality outside does not disappear. It is supposed to be a common knowledge, but Ukraine at the moment had a fully deployed and active AA system armed by Buk missiles in the same area at the moment of catastrophe. They've also had the full radar coverage of the region, but data was never presented to investigation. US also had all the information related to the incident, and they claimed that multiple times, yet they refuse to disclose the data as well. The Dutch never bothered to ask them either.

>pushing things as far as they can and a mistake happening?
"Investigation" says, it was not a mistake, and I agree with them on that part - there was no mistake.
>> No. 111799 ID: 1d521e
File 151874870955.jpg - (325.00KB , 1920x1280 , Control_console_of_Buk-M2E_missile_system_TELAR.jpg )
111799
>>111798

>>That is what I said. Isolated from regional complex of AA systems it means firing blindly

It did not fire blindly. Your assertion is wrong. It has it's own onboard radar capable of tracking 4 MiG-21 sized targets at 95km. It's meant to be able to operate independently of any other BUK system, it's even capable of acting as C&C for a second TEL. They developed this capability specifically to counter radiation-seeking missiles developed to counter their KUB predecessors. If it was connected to other BUK elements, it means there would have been more eyes and brains involved in the engagement, reducing the chances of an accident like this happening. The radar is not the issue here, and your inability to accept that a BUK TELAR is capable of acting in an autonomous role only weakens your point further.

>>A technical specialist who suddenly forgets that he may be firing at different target of different size at different altitude with different speed

This isn't the first time Joe Specialist has fucked up with AA. Shit some guys have even managed to lite up friendly ships with CIWS. Considering pic-related is what they're working with, it's not unbelievable. Certainly more believable than the Ukrainians shooting it down with an older BUK M1 and then the Dutch willfully covering things up.

>>Considering the proximity of aggressively expanding NATO block it is a coverup that, ofc, involves not only those two countries.

Oh yes, this is NATO's fault because Russia is completely innocent here. They didn't invade Georgia in 2008, they didn't annex Crimea after starting a civil war in the Ukraine, NATO adopted an aggressive posture for no reason what so ever. Russia is being bullied by the west, right guys? Totally makes sense for them to murder a few hundred people and blame it on Russia to sway public opinion, it clearly wasn't already trashed because of their actions of the previous decade.

I miss the old opchan.
>> No. 111800 ID: 6e9258
File 151876038692.jpg - (116.38KB , 1024x576 , mh17_vs.jpg )
111800
>>111799
>ignores all publicly known arguments at once
>proceeds to repeat his own previous arguments
Nice attempt at imitating curiosity, dumbass, but you failed it at step 2.

>It did not fire blindly.
To begin with, without radar the missile can not even acquire any targets. According to "investigation", it acquired target at almost maximum distance and fired at it squarely. But because there was no means to confirm the nature of the target, it actually much means it fired blindly at random radar mark.

>If it was connected to other BUK elements, it means there would have been more eyes and brains involved in the engagement, reducing the chances of an accident like this happening.
Unfortunately for the passengers, a Russian invasion of Ukraine on this day consisted of a single obsolete missile platform, mounted on top of flatbed trailer. The investigation did not bother to find out any more evidence of said invasion, and, apparently, it only found out that said trailer teleported twice over the state border and drove some places.

>Oh yes, this is NATO's fault because Russia is completely innocent here.
Nope, it is NATO's fault because there's overwhelming evidence to it.

>They didn't invade Georgia in 2008, they didn't annex Crimea
>Totally makes sense for them to murder a few hundred people and blame it on Russia to sway public opinion, it clearly wasn't already trashed because of their actions of the previous decade.
Evidently, it wasn't trashed enough because "public opinion" in both cases admitted that Russia was responding to clear and unavoidable danger of invasion aimed at its citizens.

>I miss the old opchan.
Wrong again, I was there back in 2014 and reported a lot of info since the beginning of the conflict.
>> No. 111802 ID: 1d521e
Ah yes, the opchan heydays of 2014. Fucking hell the Russian shills are almost as annoying as Clio.
>> No. 111821 ID: ef0a3b
File 151917138039.png - (377.46KB , 642x716 , 1510966879485.png )
111821
>>111762
Ted Kaczynski called this "end of facts" ages ago, he describes the perpetrator extremely accurately.

https://genius.com/Unabomber-the-danger-of-leftism-annotated

213. Because of their need for rebellion and for membership in a movement, leftists or persons of similar psychological type often are unattracted to a rebellious or activist movement whose goals and membership are not initially leftist. The resulting influx of leftish types can easily turn a non-leftist movement into a leftist one, so that leftist goals replace or distort the original goals of the movement.

214. To avoid this, a movement that exalts nature and opposes technology must take a resolutely anti-leftist stance and must avoid all collaboration with leftists. Leftism is in the long run inconsistent with wild nature, with human freedom and with the elimination of modern technology. Leftism is collectivist; it seeks to bind together the entire world (both nature and the human race) into a unified whole. But this implies management of nature and of human life by organized society, and it requires advanced technology. You can’t have a united world without rapid transportation and communication, you can’t make all people love one another without sophisticated psychological techniques, you can’t have a “planned society” without the necessary technological base. Above all, leftism is driven by the need for power, and the leftist seeks power on a collective basis, through identification with a mass movement or an organization. Leftism is unlikely ever to give up technology, because technology is too valuable a source of collective power.

215. The anarchist [34] too seeks power, but he seeks it on an individual or small-group basis; he wants individuals and small groups to be able to control the circumstances of their own lives. He opposes technology because it makes small groups dependent on large organizations.

216. Some leftists may seem to oppose technology, but they will oppose it only so long as they are outsiders and the technological system is controlled by non-leftists. If leftism ever becomes dominant in society, so that the technological system becomes a tool in the hands of leftists, they will enthusiastically use it and promote its growth. In doing this they will be repeating a pattern that leftism has shown again and again in the past. When the Bolsheviks in Russia were outsiders, they vigorously opposed censorship and the secret police, they advocated self-determination for ethnic minorities, and so forth; but as soon as they came into power themselves, they imposed a tighter censorship and created a more ruthless secret police than any that had existed under the tsars, and they oppressed ethnic minorities at least as much as the tsars had done. In the United States, a couple of decades ago when leftists were a minority in our universities, leftist professors were vigorous proponents of academic freedom, but today, in those of our universities where leftists have become dominant, they have shown themselves ready to take away from everyone else’s academic freedom. (This is “political correctness.”) The same will happen with leftists and technology: They will use it to oppress everyone else if they ever get it under their own control.

217. In earlier revolutions, leftists of the most power-hungry type, repeatedly, have first cooperated with non-leftist revolutionaries, as well as with leftists of a more libertarian inclination, and later have double- crossed them to seize power for themselves. Robespierre did this in the French Revolution, the Bolsheviks did it in the Russian Revolution, the communists did it in Spain in 1938 and Castro and his followers did it in Cuba. Given the past history of leftism, it would be utterly foolish for non-leftist revolutionaries today to collaborate with leftists.

218. Various thinkers have pointed out that leftism is a kind of religion. Leftism is not a religion in the strict sense because leftist doctrine does not postulate the existence of any supernatural being. But, for the leftist, leftism plays a psychological role much like that which religion plays for some people. The leftist NEEDS to believe in leftism; it plays a vital role in his psychological economy. His beliefs are not easily modified by logic or facts. He has a deep conviction that leftism is morally Right with a capital R, and that he has not only a right but a duty to impose leftist morality on everyone. (However, many of the people we are referring to as “leftists” do not think of themselves as leftists and would not describe their system of beliefs as leftism. We use the term “leftism” because we don’t know of any better words to designate the spectrum of related creeds that includes the feminist, gay rights, political correctness, etc., movements, and because these movements have a strong affinity with the old left. See paragraphs 227-230.)

219. Leftism is a totalitarian force. Wherever leftism is in a position of power it tends to invade every private corner and force every thought into a leftist mold. In part this is because of the quasi-religious character of leftism; everything contrary to leftist beliefs represents Sin. More importantly, leftism is a totalitarian force because of the leftists’ drive for power. The leftist seeks to satisfy his need for power through identification with a social movement and he tries to go through the power process by helping to pursue and attain the goals of the movement (see paragraph 83). But no matter how far the movement has gone in attaining its goals the leftist is never satisfied, because his activism is a surrogate activity (see paragraph 41). That is, the leftist’s real motive is not to attain the ostensible goals of leftism; in reality he is motivated by the sense of power he gets from struggling for and then reaching a social goal. [35] Consequently the leftist is never satisfied with the goals he has already attained; his need for the power process leads him always to pursue some new goal. The leftist wants equal opportunities for minorities. When that is attained he insists on statistical equality of achievement by minorities. And as long as anyone harbors in some corner of his mind a negative attitude toward some minority, the leftist has to re-educated him. And ethnic minorities are not enough; no one can be allowed to have a negative attitude toward homosexuals, disabled people, fat people, old people, ugly people, and on and on and on. It’s not enough that the public should be informed about the hazards of smoking; a warning has to be stamped on every package of cigarettes. Then cigarette advertising has to be restricted if not banned. The activists will never be satisfied until tobacco is outlawed, and after that it will be alcohol, then junk food, etc. Activists have fought gross child abuse, which is reasonable. But now they want to stop all spanking. When they have done that they will want to ban something else they consider unwholesome, then another thing and then another. They will never be satisfied until they have complete control over all child rearing practices. And then they will move on to another cause.

220. Suppose you asked leftists to make a list of ALL the things that were wrong with society, and then suppose you instituted EVERY social change that they demanded. It is safe to say that within a couple of years the majority of leftists would find something new to complain about, some new social “evil” to correct because, once again, the leftist is motivated less by distress at society’s ills than by the need to satisfy his drive for power by imposing his solutions on society.

221. Because of the restrictions placed on their thoughts and behavior by their high level of socialization, many leftists of the over-socialized type cannot pursue power in the ways that other people do. For them the drive for power has only one morally acceptable outlet, and that is in the struggle to impose their morality on everyone.

222. Leftists, especially those of the oversocialized type, are True Believers in the sense of Eric Hoffer’s book, “The True Believer.” But not all True Believers are of the same psychological type as leftists. Presumably a true-believing nazi, for instance, is very different psychologically from a true-believing leftist. Because of their capacity for single-minded devotion to a cause, True Believers are a useful, perhaps a necessary, ingredient of any revolutionary movement. This presents a problem with which we must admit we don’t know how to deal. We aren’t sure how to harness the energies of the True Believer to a revolution against technology. At present all we can say is that no True Believer will make a safe recruit to the revolution unless his commitment is exclusively to the destruction of technology. If he is committed also to another ideal, he may want to use technology as a tool for pursuing that other ideal (see paragraphs 220, 221).

223. Some readers may say, “This stuff about leftism is a lot of crap. I know John and Jane who are leftish types and they don’t have all these totalitarian tendencies.” It’s quite true that many leftists, possibly even a numerical majority, are decent people who sincerely believe in tolerating others’ values (up to a point) and wouldn’t want to use high-handed methods to reach their social goals. Our remarks about leftism are not meant to apply to every individual leftist but to describe the general character of leftism as a movement. And the general character of a movement is not necessarily determined by the numerical proportions of the various kinds of people involved in the movement.

224. The people who rise to positions of power in leftist movements tend to be leftists of the most power- hungry type, because power-hungry people are those who strive hardest to get into positions of power. Once the power-hungry types have captured control of the movement, there are many leftists of a gentler breed who inwardly disapprove of many of the actions of the leaders, but cannot bring themselves to oppose them. They NEED their faith in the movement, and because they cannot give up this faith they go along with the leaders. True, SOME leftists do have the guts to oppose the totalitarian tendencies that emerge, but they generally lose, because the power-hungry types are better organized, are more ruthless and Machiavellian and have taken care to build themselves a strong power base.

225. These phenomena appeared clearly in Russia and other countries that were taken over by leftists. Similarly, before the breakdown of communism in the USSR, leftish types in the West would seldom criticize that country. If prodded they would admit that the USSR did many wrong things, but then they would try to find excuses for the communists and begin talking about the faults of the West. They always opposed Western military resistance to communist aggression. Leftish types all over the world vigorously protested the U.S. military action in Vietnam, but when the USSR invaded Afghanistan they did nothing. Not that they approved of the Soviet actions; but because of their leftist faith, they just couldn’t bear to put themselves in opposition to communism. Today, in those of our universities where “political correctness” has become dominant, there are probably many leftish types who privately disapprove of the suppression of academic freedom, but they go along with it anyway.

226. Thus the fact that many individual leftists are personally mild and fairly tolerant people by no means prevents leftism as a whole form having a totalitarian tendency.

too much text to include here.
>> No. 111825 ID: ed6f17
>>111802
Clio at least didn't argue from a book of madlibs.
>> No. 111955 ID: ccf894
File 152079831291.gif - (1.90MB , 400x170 , bump.gif )
111955
Only happening in the USA.
The rest of the world is not so anti-intellectual.
>> No. 111956 ID: 5c87e8
  >>111821
>224. The people who rise to positions of power in leftist movements tend to be leftists of the most power- hungry type, because power-hungry people are those who strive hardest to get into positions of power. Once the power-hungry types have captured control of the movement, there are many leftists of a gentler breed who inwardly disapprove of many of the actions of the leaders, but cannot bring themselves to oppose them. They NEED their faith in the movement, and because they cannot give up this faith they go along with the leaders. True, SOME leftists do have the guts to oppose the totalitarian tendencies
>> No. 111960 ID: 9315da
File 152102045169.jpg - (34.06KB , 333x499 , constantlyrefer.jpg )
111960
>>111762
automation and connectedness are allowing for greater attempts at control.

I am frequently tempted to sell everything and go build a shack in the woods and wait for the coming technocratic dystopian nightmare that we are hurtling towards.

book related. people have been manipulated into voting one way or another for the last 2000 years.
>> No. 111965 ID: 09c7e0
>>111960
people from the top down are constantly trying to get across the point of just how important they are so you will respect them and do their bidding. one of the ways they do it is by getting you to vote for them.
the most gullible 110 million people in the country vote and the most gullible fraction of them decides the outcome.
if no was an option rather than just left or right voter turnout would be a lot higher.
>> No. 111966 ID: 62e901
Many years ago there was a sailor who had traveled to many different countries and seen many different sights. One day as he was sailing across the seas he came upon an island and decided to rest there for a while. He moored his boat on the shore and began to look around. All around the island was a beautiful white beach and behind the beach was a dense tropical jungle. All was quiet until...

He thought he could hear a faint noise in the distance and tilted his head to listen. He sensed it came from within the jungle and walked closer. Sure enough, once again he heard this faint noise in the background. He started to hack his way through the foliage in order to make a pathway. The more he moved inland the louder the noise became. He continued to cut his way through until eventually he reached a clearing and there in the middle of the clearing he saw an old man sitting cross-legged on the ground.

The old man has his eyes closed and was chanting "Mo, Mo, Mo" in long, soft tones. The sailor approached the old man and tapped him on the shoulder. The old man turned slowly around and smiled.

"Excuse me," said the sailor, "I think you have made a mistake. I think you should be saying 'Om, Om, Om.'"

"Oh," said the old man, smiling. "Thank you so much," and began to chant, "Om, Om, Om."

The sailor felt pleased with himself and made his way back to the boat. He began to sail away, and when he had sailed for a while he felt a tap on his shoulder. He turned around, surprised to see the old man, who said, "Forgive me for interrupting your journey. Could you please remind me what the chant should be?"

The sailor, in a state of shock, said, "Om, Om, Om."

"Thank you so much," said the old man and walked back across the water to the island.
>> No. 111967 ID: 62e901
>>111966
Didn't mean to post that-- Forget it.
>> No. 111970 ID: 658e45
Fabrication of events is nothing new. The Jews, for example, have been doing it since day one.

But as long as our maps are still accurate and we can accurately know where things are, it's all good. Nobody can manipulate that, right?

Since Russians have been brought up, the way I see it is thta their problem is that the Soviet period has caused the criminal/prison culture and mindset to permeate very deeply throughout society as a whole. It's a way of thinking themleaves them with no respect for themselves or others, only a cynical desire to humiliate people. It's not really their fault, just the way they turned out. Really a sad sight.


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